Home Cinema 6500 UB – More on frame interpolation
December 25th, 2008 Art Feierman
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Greetings – It’s Christmas Day, but a reviewer’s work is never done. (beware, this blog is long and rambling)
I realize most people reading this have read the three previous blogs on the 6500 UB. Let me say this. My first blog, I was blown away, the 6500 UB has great black levels, very good (not exceptional dark shadow detail), and, at least very good depth, in any mode. Overall, a dazzling projector!
The second blog discussed interpolation as I started logging some serious hours
on the UB, and I started focusing on the jerkiness, and over-the-top depth in some frame interpolation, or 4:4 modes. I could almost hear a sigh of frustration from all of my readers, perhaps even panic from those that thought, “finally here is the right projector” (based on the first blog).The 3rd blog – yesterday, life is good again, after just a little work with 24 fps turned off, the Epson now provides very good depth, the abnormal jerkiness in gone, and as they say: ”We have a winner” – if everything continues to check out.
This blog – well just about everything does check out, and we definitely have a winner here, with the Home Cinema 6500 UB. I will point out one situation below with an issue, but it seems to be an anomaly, and probably not the Epson’s fault, but the content being dished out in HDTV for just one movie.
OK, I’ll start with a summary of 24fps viewing:
If you feed the 6500 UB 24fps content (in my case, Blu-ray played on my PS3, with 24fps turned on, on the PS3), this are the issues. After that, I’ll get into handling 30/60 fps source material (from HDTV, from my PS3, once the 24fps option is turned off (on the PS3):
1. 4:4 turned on, frame interpolation showing off: Visible and significant jerkiness, somewhat increased depth to the image. The jerkiness in the image is enough to make setting not reasonable option.
2. 4:4 turned off, frame interpolation On (doesn’t seem to matter whether the interpolation setting is low Normal or high), image has incredible depth, but jerkiness is massive, generally unwatchable. The look definitely is more like live digital video (think new cameraman running around).
3. 4:4 On, Frame interpolation on, but grayed out in menu (to get that combination you must turn off 4:4, set frame interpolation, set 4:4 back to on – which will gray out the box. The manual gives no indication of what is supposedly happening with this combination. End result, same as #2 – great depth and tonnage of jerkiness.
Bottom line: Not much luck with 24 fps, except straight up – not using 4:4 or frame interpolation, in which case it performs just like you would expect with any (non-frame interpolation) projector being fed a 24fps source.
30/60 source material:
I blogged after some brief viewing yesterday with the PS3 having the 24fps option turned off, forcing the traditional 30/60 operation.
Let’s start by saying “wow, what a difference”. There’s still more to sort out, believe me, but here’s the scoop so far.
1. Frame interpolation turned on (I haven’t been able to discern much difference between the low, normal and high settings, but I’ve been concentrating on the Normal setting, figuring that Epson intends that to be the best overall: Depth is increased, the jerkiness is virtually gone. There are moments where you see a little, but that, I’m guessing, has to be expected from any frame interpolation scheme. The amount of such unevenness is small, and while watching much of The Dark Knight, it was never a problem. It’s well less than normal 3:2 pull-down (not to mention infrequent, while 3:2 judder is constant), and, I’d say smoother overall, than straight 24fps.
Again, there are moments, where you do see motion artifacts but I find them essentially unnoticeable when just watching. When looking for them, you can find them. (You have no idea how many times I’ve watched the same scenes from Dark Knight and Casino Royale, in the last 48 hours.)
There’s more, though. At that point last night, I thought I had this completely solved, but not quite, I learned today. after watching some football today (and a little NBA), on regular and HDTV, but then I kicked on Groundhog Day on HDTV, and, well, now I’m seeing a bit of a problem, again. Not bad, but there is a little jerkiness, such as when Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell are walking in the snow at night, in front of a picket fence. There it’s easy to spot. Thing is, turn off frame interpolation, and you see about the same amount of jerkiness due to the usual 3:2 pulldown. It may well be that there are limits to the complexity that creative frame interpolation can handle. Afterall, a slow pan against a lot of picket fence, has to require a ton of intelligent processing. Ultimately though, I suspect it this problem is coming from the content.
Thing is, I didn’t ever notice that with the blu-ray movies. So there are still things to sort out! And after screwing around with Groundhog Day, I switched to an HDNet program called World’s Coastlines…
Not only is the scenery absolutely gorgeous, but the image is smooth as anything I’ve seen coming from HDTV, on all kinds of scenes, and speeds of panning. So, I’m not exactly sure why Groundhog day on HDTV was worse than movies like Casino Royale and Dark Knight on Blu-ray, or the great content on World’s Coastlines… So, as I mentioned above, I’m beginning to think that the Groundhog Day broadcast may have been processed more than once, before getting to my cable box, because, nothing else I’ve thrown at the Epson today has exhibited anything like what I saw on Groundhog Day, in terms of artifacts.
So, not all the answers, but, it certainly looks like The way to do frame interpolation with the Epson is definitely to not feed it 24fps.
Regular 24fps works just as expected, btw, when frame interpolation and/or 4:4 are not used.
Bottom line: My recommendation – feed the 6500 UB, 30/60 if you want to use frame interpolation. If not, feed 24fps, with everything off. Both are doing pretty much exactly what you are looking for!
It’s going to take a lot of viewing, and sorting to figure out what really can be expected of good frame interpolation, but I do believe the Epson has it, as long as you are not using 24fps.
Sports on HDTV look great, with frame interpolation on, it’s doing exactly what we want it to do. Generally I’m sticking to the Normal setting, but I really haven’t been able to tell what differences exist between the three modes.
Regarding my reviewing of previous frame interpolation projectors:
When I reviewed the PT-AE3000, I mostly stared at the same scene of dogfighting in Top Gun, to see the effect of frame interpolation on the fast moving jets. There you can see the difference, but I wasn’t looking around for interpolation generated artifacts. Same for the Z3000. It wasn’t until I started with the Epson, with 24fps, and the issues, that I started to focus on what’s happening beyond following a single fast moving object. And boy have things gotten interesting, and challenging. (I believe, however, I would have spotted any problem the size of the Epson’s with 24fps and frame interpolation with either.)
Related:
Some either emailed me, or posted a comment earlier asking how Epson handles firmware upgrades, if necessary. I don’t actually know if they can be downloaded, and installed, but will find out when epson reopens in a week.
Last word! I’m hoping not to blog again on this topic. My real goal is to complete the 6500 UB review and publish no later than Sunday night. Actually, this time, I just might make it though it’s a busy weekend, with family and bowl games.
I will still reserve final judgement on the Epson Home Cinema 6500 UB, until I finish the review. But for those of you trying to decide now, here’s where I stand:
Despite the 24fps issues with frame interpolation, this is my choice of the under $3000 projectors. For my taste, and special features on the Panasonic notwithstanding, I definitely favor the Epson. While I haven’t done my side by sides with the Sony HW10, again, my money is still on the Epson. It may not be the ultimate in film-like but it is spectacular. Last year I said, that if someone took away my JVC RS1, and I had to buy a less expensive projector it would be the 1080 UB. That’s even more true with the 6500 UB. I can definitely live with the 6500 UB, but for my very large screen size. So, other aspects of the projector notwithstanding (brightness, audible noise, etc.), this is the one I will probably recommend the most.
And if Epson can solve the 24fps/interpolation issues, well, then that’s even better.
Even if not, from what I have seen (non-24fps) on Dark Knight, Casino Royale, all HDTV (except Groundhog Day). (And also on 24 fps without interpolation or 4:4.) This is my pick for under $3000.
If I change my mind (which I seriously doubt), you’ll find out in the full review!
OK, get back to your holidays. Those of you still on the fence… Time to get off! -art
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December 25th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
HI Art,
Thanks for going the extra mile with your updates, especially at this time of year. It appears that 24fps with either FI on or off produces the most depth, but also the most jerkiness – too bad. From what I’ve read the Panasonic handles 24fps with both 4:4 and FI engaged and shows no jerkiness, which would be a big plus for it if it also has the increased depth that the Epson has. Does it? How much of a hit in image depth does 60fps with FI on does the image from the Epson take compared to 24fps with 4:4 and FI on? The interesting thing for me is that I have a Sony G90 and at one point I feed it 1200p at 72hz (1080p with the ATI video card was just about impossible to get to work properly) from my HTPC and immediately noticed more depth. I’m going to try 1080P at 120 hz. – should be interesting. Is it increased fps or FI or both that increases the sense of image depth? That’s what I want to know.
Thanks again for your updates.
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I’ll be writing the next blog on this topic shortly today. I expect I’ll cover most of what you are asking at that time.
One point of clarification however, for everyone.
4:4 is frame interpolation, it’s just not “CREATIVE” frame interpolation. I’m going to have to keep repeating that. Catch the next blog. -art
December 25th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Greetings and merry Christmas.
Do you feel that the AE3000 and Z3000 would also benefit from a 30/60fps feed instead of 24fps when using frame interpolation?
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Hi Ty,
I don’t think so. What is interesting about the Epson is that it takes a 30/60 source, and strips it back to 24fps before adding the frame interpolation, according to Epson. That immediately raises the question if the real jerkiness when feeding 24fps, may have something to do with my sources – Sony PS3 players. I’ve already received some emails indicating that with some other Blu-ray players Panasonic and Pioneer players) the results are markedly different (better) relating to the 24fps + interpolation – issues. -art
December 25th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
I am debating between the EPSON 6500UB and the Panasonic 3000, but I only have $3000 to spend. Tha catch is should I get the Epson or get the Panasonic and the DVDO Edge?
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My money is on the Epson, but you have many factors to consider, from brightness / screen size to black levels, etc. As to the Panny and DVDO Edge combo. In talking with Mike after his review, he points out there is no real improvement from traditional Blu-ray sources:
“Finally, I viewed some Blu-ray disks from the Sony PS3 through the Edge. Here, I wasn’t really expecting to see improvement and there really wasn’t any. The Edge did a good job of staying out of the way and not detracting from the 1080p signal from the PS3.”
So while the DVDO may do good things for standard DVD and standard TV signals, it sounds like for Blu-ray, no benefit, and for HDTV, some slight benefits. So, no, I’d go with the Epson for it’s inherently greater depth and dynamics, in part due to the extra black level performance. Just one man’s opinion though. It’s hard to not be satisfied with either, it’s just that the Epson has more sizzle when you want it, and while not the most film-like, it’s not very far from the mark. -art
December 26th, 2008 at 3:16 am
Hello Art,
I think that the 24fps problems do not occur with all sources. Feeding my TW5000 (Europe version of 7500UB) with HTPC blueray (Casino Royale) on PowerDVD @ 24Hz using frame interpolation or 4:4 pulldown is just as good as when feedng 60fps – not perfect, though, every now and then a slight judder and (only with FI) motion artifacts, just as you described. BUT – before that I tested Arcsoft Total Media Theatre instead of PowerDVD and had the exact same symptoms with 24fps – very jerky, completely unwatchable. With 60fps it was ok.
So if possible please test another 24fps source – maybe HD DVDs or another blue ray player, if that is possible to see if it happens there also.
Guenther
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Greetings Guenther,
Yes I’m hearing that from a couple of other folks as well. I may not be able to bring in another source for Blu-ray before the full review posts probably Sunday night, but, ultimately I will. I plan to stay on top of this issue, until, 1) I have a really good handle on the practical aspects of the technologies – the why this and why that – and 2) have the practical sorted out for the projectors that use it, including more of “do you really want it? should you care? when is it most important? when is it not?…
December 26th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Well, like you mentioned in Blog 1, this is indeed very fun to read.
Your reviews are very proffessional, but reading your blogs is like reading a costumors review from someone who knows things, and is having alot of humor. TOP
I’m very interrested in the Frame Interpolation issues compared with the Panny.
But I can wait till Monday.
I just wanted to let you know.
You’re the best.
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Thanks! -art
December 26th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Have you double checked to see if 24p from the PS3 is not part of the issue? Just wondering because I had not seen that mentioned…
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The PS3, is definitely a possible cause. I’ve had several emails from the EU, with people with the TW5000 (Pro Cinema 7500 UB – same projector but for some menu relabeling, ISF certification, anamorphic support and cabinet color). Those using other Blu-ray players are asking where and what I’m seeing, because they report that they are not seeing anything resembling the magnitude that I am reporting. As noted, I will try to get in another player (non-PS3) to confirm that. -art
December 26th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Art, can you tell me a scene at the beginning of Dark Knight) where you really noticed this? Maybe start and end time on the clock timeline. I have the Blu-Ray rented right now and am looking at the very beginning of the movie (in fact, beginning of first scene where the panning in of the camera on the skyline…figured that was a good one since there are lots of lines on the buildings to detect judder, etc.) I want to see if I can reproduce what you are seeing on a pj hooked to a Panasonic BD-35k set on 24p. I am having a hard time seeing it with frame interpolation on or 4:4…though, I do think I see the judder with both off. I have only spent 15 minutes on this, and my eyes are certainly not as discerning as yours for sure….but I wanted to experience what you are referring to…
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Hi Dave, first, almost any part of the initial IMAX content – from the opening thru the first dark skyline scene (beginning of the 2nd chapter). That’s re the “live digital video” look. On slow pans like the one you mentioned at the beginning, that was pretty tame. The jerkiness can be seen when the clowns land, inside the bank, and just about everywhere it seems, when there is both foreground and background motion going on. The pan you describe at the beginning doesn’t have any fast “foreground” separate motion.
Most importantly, though is several of you guys are reporting that you aren’t seeing what I am, and are using other than Sony PS3’s. Additionally, I’ve had a report (2 I think), of folks using PS3’s that are seeing the over the top jerkiness, I’ve been reporting. So stay close, I am going to try to lay my hands on a different Blu-ray player soon, but between Mike and I, we have only 3 PS3’s. -art
December 26th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Hello Art,
I really enjoy reading your reviews. Since 4 days I own the european version of the projector and like it very much.
One issue I’m seeing: when using frame interpolation with subtitles on (from a ps3) I get randomly white artifacts in the subtitle line – especially when playing back DVDs. Did you notice this too or are subtitles not in your review scope?
Thanks and merry christmas
Norbert
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Greetings, I’ll check that out. Interesting. IMO, all this frame interpolation seems to be more distracting from the “Art” of movie watching, than beneficial to the picture. I truly fear that many people are going to get hung up on all the little issues and artifacts and forget how to enjoy a movie.
In the US, I rarely see a subtitle, I’m not much into “art flicks”, so in my normal movie watching, maybe one international movie a year (other than the occasional high budget Chinese action flicks (Hero, Flying Daggers, etc.). Never even occurred to me to look at the effect on subtitles.
Ahh, great, it will give many people one more thing little thing to fret about.
Enjoy, and if you like after you really get used to your projector in a week or two, why not post your own impressions?
January 8th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Good Day.. really enjoy your site, about to buy my first projector, and really think the Epson 6500 UB will be the one (hopefully to find a 7500 as want it ISF certified)
My question comes with the frame interpolation and LCoS projectors like the JVC RS-2 vs the Epson 6500.
The specs for the JVC, under HDTV, it says 1080P/24 and 50 and 60. Whereas under the Epson HDTV is only shows 1080P/60. Does that mean anything? Does that mean that the JVC and LCoS projectors do not need frame interpolation?
Thanks
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Greetings Jason,
Hmm, let’s sort this out. To my knowledge, (at least in the US), there is no such thing as a 1080p HDTV signal – only 1080i. And in 1080i, there is no such thing as a 24fps signal supported by HDTV broadcasters – to the best of my knowledge).
I think JVC is saying it is compatible with 1080i or 1080p at 24fps, as well as 50 hz for international markets, and 60 for the US (what I like to call 30/60).
The Epson supports inputs of 24, as well as 50 or 60, at 1080p, and I imagine, also 1080i at 24fps, if I could find such a source.
As to needing frame interpolation, not sure any of us “need” it, as to trade-offs, but, there are two types of motion blur I am aware of, from doing some research. One relates to things the eye recognizes, retina movement, etc. That one, from my reading is to some extent, like rainbow effect. It affects different people differently.
The other relates to motion blur specifically in that the source material – let’s focus on 24fps film – normal movies, is shot so slow (24fps) that fast moving objects blur or skip across the screen. Simple 4:4 or 5:5 (taking 24fps to 96 or 120), deals (however successfully or not) with the first issue, but not the second. The solution to the second one, is to create new frames between frame 1 and frame two, with each frame, say 1/96 second apart from the other, instead of 1/24th of a second. When you create unique frames, “interpolating the difference between frame 1 and frame two, with frames 1a, 1b, 1c, each with the fast moving objects in different positions, that gives you smoother fast motion – a hockey puck sliding rapidly along the ice, a tennis ball being served, a jet streaking across the screen in Top Gun, or a Transformer changing shape. Because now an object that moves across the screen in a half second, would be “drawn” in 48 different positions, instead of the original 12.
So you get this:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . creative frame interpolation @ 96fps
instead of this:
. . . . . . . . . . standard 24fps
where each dot is showing the different position of one moving object. (Both dot sequences take the same time.
basic 4:4 and 5:5 would still have the same number of frames as first example above, but in the first example the position of our fast moving object is different. It’s just that they would fire four (or five) times instead of one, in the same location, over the same time.
-art