My question comes with the frame interpolation and LCoS projectors like the JVC RS-2 vs the Epson 6500.

The specs for the JVC, under HDTV, it says 1080P/24 and 50 and 60. Whereas under the Epson HDTV is only shows 1080P/60. Does that mean anything? Does that mean that the JVC and LCoS projectors do not need frame interpolation?

Thanks

****************
Greetings Jason,

Hmm, let’s sort this out. To my knowledge, (at least in the US), there is no such thing as a 1080p HDTV signal - only 1080i. And in 1080i, there is no such thing as a 24fps signal supported by HDTV broadcasters - to the best of my knowledge).

I think JVC is saying it is compatible with 1080i or 1080p at 24fps, as well as 50 hz for international markets, and 60 for the US (what I like to call 30/60).

The Epson supports inputs of 24, as well as 50 or 60, at 1080p, and I imagine, also 1080i at 24fps, if I could find such a source.

As to needing frame interpolation, not sure any of us “need” it, as to trade-offs, but, there are two types of motion blur I am aware of, from doing some research. One relates to things the eye recognizes, retina movement, etc. That one, from my reading is to some extent, like rainbow effect. It affects different people differently.

The other relates to motion blur specifically in that the source material - let’s focus on 24fps film - normal movies, is shot so slow (24fps) that fast moving objects blur or skip across the screen. Simple 4:4 or 5:5 (taking 24fps to 96 or 120), deals (however successfully or not) with the first issue, but not the second. The solution to the second one, is to create new frames between frame 1 and frame two, with each frame, say 1/96 second apart from the other, instead of 1/24th of a second. When you create unique frames, “interpolating the difference between frame 1 and frame two, with frames 1a, 1b, 1c, each with the fast moving objects in different positions, that gives you smoother fast motion - a hockey puck sliding rapidly along the ice, a tennis ball being served, a jet streaking across the screen in Top Gun, or a Transformer changing shape. Because now an object that moves across the screen in a half second, would be “drawn” in 48 different positions, instead of the original 12.

So you get this:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . creative frame interpolation @ 96fps
instead of this:
. . . . . . . . . . standard 24fps
where each dot is showing the different position of one moving object. (Both dot sequences take the same time.

basic 4:4 and 5:5 would still have the same number of frames as first example above, but in the first example the position of our fast moving object is different. It’s just that they would fire four (or five) times instead of one, in the same location, over the same time.

-art

I really enjoy reading your reviews. Since 4 days I own the european version of the projector and like it very much.
One issue I’m seeing: when using frame interpolation with subtitles on (from a ps3) I get randomly white artifacts in the subtitle line - especially when playing back DVDs. Did you notice this too or are subtitles not in your review scope?

Thanks and merry christmas
Norbert

********
Greetings, I’ll check that out. Interesting. IMO, all this frame interpolation seems to be more distracting from the “Art” of movie watching, than beneficial to the picture. I truly fear that many people are going to get hung up on all the little issues and artifacts and forget how to enjoy a movie.

In the US, I rarely see a subtitle, I’m not much into “art flicks”, so in my normal movie watching, maybe one international movie a year (other than the occasional high budget Chinese action flicks (Hero, Flying Daggers, etc.). Never even occurred to me to look at the effect on subtitles.

Ahh, great, it will give many people one more thing little thing to fret about.

Enjoy, and if you like after you really get used to your projector in a week or two, why not post your own impressions?

******************
Hi Dave, first, almost any part of the initial IMAX content - from the opening thru the first dark skyline scene (beginning of the 2nd chapter). That’s re the “live digital video” look. On slow pans like the one you mentioned at the beginning, that was pretty tame. The jerkiness can be seen when the clowns land, inside the bank, and just about everywhere it seems, when there is both foreground and background motion going on. The pan you describe at the beginning doesn’t have any fast “foreground” separate motion.

Most importantly, though is several of you guys are reporting that you aren’t seeing what I am, and are using other than Sony PS3’s. Additionally, I’ve had a report (2 I think), of folks using PS3’s that are seeing the over the top jerkiness, I’ve been reporting. So stay close, I am going to try to lay my hands on a different Blu-ray player soon, but between Mike and I, we have only 3 PS3’s. -art

******************

The PS3, is definitely a possible cause. I’ve had several emails from the EU, with people with the TW5000 (Pro Cinema 7500 UB - same projector but for some menu relabeling, ISF certification, anamorphic support and cabinet color). Those using other Blu-ray players are asking where and what I’m seeing, because they report that they are not seeing anything resembling the magnitude that I am reporting. As noted, I will try to get in another player (non-PS3) to confirm that. -art

I’m very interrested in the Frame Interpolation issues compared with the Panny.
But I can wait till Monday.
I just wanted to let you know.

You’re the best.

***

Thanks! -art

I think that the 24fps problems do not occur with all sources. Feeding my TW5000 (Europe version of 7500UB) with HTPC blueray (Casino Royale) on PowerDVD @ 24Hz using frame interpolation or 4:4 pulldown is just as good as when feedng 60fps - not perfect, though, every now and then a slight judder and (only with FI) motion artifacts, just as you described. BUT - before that I tested Arcsoft Total Media Theatre instead of PowerDVD and had the exact same symptoms with 24fps - very jerky, completely unwatchable. With 60fps it was ok.
So if possible please test another 24fps source - maybe HD DVDs or another blue ray player, if that is possible to see if it happens there also.

Guenther

*************************
Greetings Guenther,

Yes I’m hearing that from a couple of other folks as well. I may not be able to bring in another source for Blu-ray before the full review posts probably Sunday night, but, ultimately I will. I plan to stay on top of this issue, until, 1) I have a really good handle on the practical aspects of the technologies - the why this and why that - and 2) have the practical sorted out for the projectors that use it, including more of “do you really want it? should you care? when is it most important? when is it not?…

**************

My money is on the Epson, but you have many factors to consider, from brightness / screen size to black levels, etc. As to the Panny and DVDO Edge combo. In talking with Mike after his review, he points out there is no real improvement from traditional Blu-ray sources:

“Finally, I viewed some Blu-ray disks from the Sony PS3 through the Edge. Here, I wasn’t really expecting to see improvement and there really wasn’t any. The Edge did a good job of staying out of the way and not detracting from the 1080p signal from the PS3.”

So while the DVDO may do good things for standard DVD and standard TV signals, it sounds like for Blu-ray, no benefit, and for HDTV, some slight benefits. So, no, I’d go with the Epson for it’s inherently greater depth and dynamics, in part due to the extra black level performance. Just one man’s opinion though. It’s hard to not be satisfied with either, it’s just that the Epson has more sizzle when you want it, and while not the most film-like, it’s not very far from the mark. -art

***************

Hi Ty,

I don’t think so. What is interesting about the Epson is that it takes a 30/60 source, and strips it back to 24fps before adding the frame interpolation, according to Epson. That immediately raises the question if the real jerkiness when feeding 24fps, may have something to do with my sources - Sony PS3 players. I’ve already received some emails indicating that with some other Blu-ray players Panasonic and Pioneer players) the results are markedly different (better) relating to the 24fps + interpolation - issues. -art

Thanks for going the extra mile with your updates, especially at this time of year. It appears that 24fps with either FI on or off produces the most depth, but also the most jerkiness - too bad. From what I’ve read the Panasonic handles 24fps with both 4:4 and FI engaged and shows no jerkiness, which would be a big plus for it if it also has the increased depth that the Epson has. Does it? How much of a hit in image depth does 60fps with FI on does the image from the Epson take compared to 24fps with 4:4 and FI on? The interesting thing for me is that I have a Sony G90 and at one point I feed it 1200p at 72hz (1080p with the ATI video card was just about impossible to get to work properly) from my HTPC and immediately noticed more depth. I’m going to try 1080P at 120 hz. - should be interesting. Is it increased fps or FI or both that increases the sense of image depth? That’s what I want to know.

Thanks again for your updates.

********

I’ll be writing the next blog on this topic shortly today. I expect I’ll cover most of what you are asking at that time.
One point of clarification however, for everyone.
4:4 is frame interpolation, it’s just not “CREATIVE” frame interpolation. I’m going to have to keep repeating that. Catch the next blog. -art