Last blog – Epson 6500 UB, 7500 UB, TW5000 frame interpolation
December 26th, 2008 Art Feierman
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Greetings,
OK! This is one more update, and summary, with my latest “thoughts” on the frame interpolation, and related issues on the Home Cinema 6500 UB, the Pro Cinema 7500 UB, and the european version of the 7500 UB – the TW5000.
First, I repeat! For most, frame interpolation is a secondary issue (for most people) in my opinion, whether the Epsons, Sanyo PLV-Z3000, Panasonic PT-AE3000 or Mitsubishi HC7000. The HC7000 btw has basic frame interpolation, but no creative frame interpolation like the others.
Second: Very interesting. When engaging frame interpolation on the Epson’s if feeding a 30/60 fps source, the Epson strips it back to 24fps before adding frame interpolation.
Third: This, plus comments from some folks on the other side of the Pond (Atlantic ocean), where some folks already have their TW5000s, is that they are not necessarily seeing what I am, regarding the jerkiness. In all such reported cases, those folks are NOT using Sony PS3’s as their Blu-ray player.
This definitely raises the question of whether the PS3’s 24fps signal has something to do with the issues I’m discussing. I have two PS3 players, and Mike has one. Neither of us has any other Blu-ray player at this time.
I will attempt to bring in a non-PS3 blu-ray player very soon, but not before I post the full review (hopefully Sunday). I will, of course report on what I find.
With a PS3 set to output 24fps, the image is great, until you engage either 4:4 (basic frame interpolation) or Frame Interpolation, which is actually creative frame interpolation, where the projector is analysing the motion and creating unique frames between the standard 24 fps frames.
Fourth: On some scenes which are just slow pans, (in other words linear), the jerkiness is not showing up, fences and buildings slide by, with frame interpolation doing what you would expect. It seems to be more complex motion that triggers the jerkiness (more below).
Engaging either form of frame interpolation provides a heavy, non-film like “live digital video” look to the image. Best translation: It looks like the scenes are shot with a guy running around with a news cam. Some who have seen at my house (about 10 folks for movies last night), describe the effect as looking more like a soap opera or live “on the scene” news broadcast. I agree, that’s a pretty accurate description.
Switching to 30/60 (turning off the 24fps option on the PS3, drastically reduces the jerkiness to occasional, on certain types of motion, in certain cases, that I would describe as typical of what you find with the Panasonic PT-AE3000, but it still has more of the “live digital video” look.
BTW, Panasonic has two modes – Mode 1, Mode 2, for frame interpolation. Mode 2 looks like the “live digital video” look of the Epson in 30/60 with frame interpolation on, but a bit less so. Mode 1, on the other hand, remains much closer to film-like, in that I really didn’t notice it when I did the review. I’m relooking the Panasonic PT-AE3000 and the Sanyo PLV-Z3000 frame interpolation performance as I go, and will report more next week sometime.
HDTV performance with frame interpolation on (obviously a 60hz source): Excellent – doing what one expects of creative frame interpolation. I’ve watched a little NBA basketball, and even a few minutes of hockey, as both are faster moving than football. It works as expected.
Movies: Currently, at least with a Sony PS3 – my recommendation – leave 4:4 and frame interpolation off, and work with a normal 24fps output, just like about every other projector out there.
Or, Plan B – feed the Epson 30/60, and use frame interpolation, if you like the effect.
I still need to take a closer look at the different frame interpolation modes (low, normal, high). Mostly I’ll be looking to see, if the low setting reduces the “live digital video” look, as much as the other two settings, and if it does, does it do so, enough, to maintain a more film-like look to the content.
Plan C, is of course, to find out if the issue is PS3 related, if so, (I have the current download in both of my PS3’s), what about the PS3 is causing it, and is there a way around it, without giving up 24fps if you want frame interpolation.
Related: Epson is now deeply involved in this. I have been communicating with them as recently as earlier today (product manager), who is forwarding my queries to Epson Japan. They have already provided me some answers, such as that the Epson strips blu-ray back to 24fps, if fed at 30/60.
What if: Several folks have asked – “If this is a problem, and Epson fixes it with new firmware, how can I get the new firmware.” Epson will get back to me as how that would be implemented, and I will report. Hopefully, it can be downloaded, then loaded into the Epson to update firmware, via the RS232 port. The only alternate I can think of is sending the projector in to them. Of course, if this is a PS3 problem… that changes everything.
Epson has promised to get back to me about firmware upgrading if such a thing were to happen.
Next: An important thing to remember about creative frame interpolation:
It’s not going to be perfect. Sure, it should be very close when dealing with linear motion (the classic, “plane enters scene on left, flies across, exits on the right”. That’s pretty straight forward. None linear motion, especially with stops and starts, and speed changes, is going to require a lot more processing power, and should be far easier to trip up (artifacts). I’ve watched enough Panasonic PT-AE3000 with frame interpolation on, to know that it too has intermittent jerkiness (like the Epson with a 30/60 feed), at certain points, when certain things are happening.
Remember what frame interpolation is supposed to do: The theory is that 24fps, and for that matter 30/60, is simply too slow to produce fast movement smoothly. Thus the higher frame rates and creatively generating in-between frames, with objects moved.
Now imagine a scene, say from Transformers, when one of the Transformers is changing form. Dozens if not hundreds of “parts” on the Transformer, are rapidly moving in different directions, at the same time, and much of that is so fast that each of them are probably only linear for a few frames at most, then there’s an angular or speed (or both) changes… To really analyze something like all of that, and process and recreate with perfect creative, has got to require a lot of very sophisticated processing, probably far more than in any projector or LCDTV posesses at this time. The result, therefore, are compromises, and some flaws – almost hiccups. But the trade-off is those occasional hiccups, vs. the continuous judder of 3:2 pull-down, or the basic minimal motion blur found at running at straight 24 fps.
So, as always – trade-offs!
Movie night feedback: After showing everyone the Epson on the first 15 minutes of Dark Knight, with the PS3 having 24fps turned off, and frame interpolation turned on for the 6500 UB, everyone was amazed at the “live digital video” look, but unanimously agreed, that while interesting, it wasn’t “natural” for movies (or perhaps it was too “real” as opposed to “film-like”. The consensus from just about everyone was that they wanted to watch the next movie in 24 fps, no interpolation, over 30/60, interpolation on. And so we did.
One person, watched about 45 more minutes of Dark Knight (while the rest of us were talking and partying before the main feature) with 30/60 and frame interpolation, and he admitted “he was getting used to it”.
Summary:
The big question though, that I am getting, is: Well which one should I buy, or “which one would you buy” of the Panasonic, Sanyo Z3000, Mitsubishi HC7000 or the Epson UB.
At this point, I would, like last year, take the Epson UB. I’d rather have the UB, and never engage any form of frame interpolation, and just watch at 24fps (for movies) and 60 for HDTVs, than watch the Panny, Sanyo, or Mitsubishi, with frame creation on. The Epson, while not the most film-like of the group, is, IMO, provides the best overall picture, it’s natural depth, pop and wow, more than makes up for not using any frame interpolation, even if you like the interpolation. If Epson should do something to solve some of the issues, or if the problem is primarily a PS3 related one, all the better.
As for the rest of you, you’ll have to make your own call. If frame interpolation is an essential for you, but want to still have a film-like look, you’ll pass on the Epson as is. Since, I haven’t spotted any serious differences in the frame creation function of the Sanyo vs Panasonic, your choice will be based on other factors, brightness in various modes, relative to what meets your needs, black level performance (Panny better than Sanyo), etc. The Mitsubishi (over here) is far more expensive than the Sanyo or the Panasonic, and an excellent projector in its own right, including being very sharp, is expensive enough to dissuade most of you from going that route, and besides, it, like the Pro Cinema 7500 UB, is a local dealer only product.
I’m watching some sports, right now, and just switched back from the Panasonic PT-AE3000 (frame interpolation engaged) to the 6500 UB (frame interpolation engaged), I’ve watched HDTV with both 720p broadcast and 1080p, and for me, the Epson is the winner. The image is sharper and I’ve got more lumens at my disposal. I’m watching sports, people, not projectors. No frame interpolation issues are jumping out at me, with either projector.
BTW, the latest pricing – here in the US:
Epson Home Cinema 6500 UB: $2999 minus $200 mail in rebate for a $2799 net
Panasonic at $2499 (only rebate is a 2nd year warranty)
Sanyo PLV-Z3000: $2395 – $200 mail in rebate for a net $2195
Enough – go buy something – or if you have – go enjoy watching something!
-art
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December 26th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Any news on the 6100? Did it get calibrated? There’s a few of us dithering over it and a first look would be greatly appreciated before most of the deals end 12/31.
For me, I’m trying to decide between it and the Mitsu HC6500.
Mike has it to calibrate. I’ll probably have it back late Monday (hey, it’s a long holiday weekend here). Figure a First Look on Tuesday or Wednesday.
I did have it powered up for a couple hours for some HDTV football, looked really good in LivingRoom mode, after I dialed down the color temp a little (basic control, not part of a calibration. But that’s all I can tell you for now. -art
December 27th, 2008 at 4:45 am
Hello Art,
after some further testing with the TW5000 I found that when fed with 24fps activating 4:4 pulldown reduces the regular 24fps motion judder without creating this distinct video look. The effect of 4:4 pulldown looks almost like level 1 of frame interpolation on the Panasonic AE3000, whereas (as you wrote) engaging Epson’s “real” frame interpolation looks like Panny’s Level 2.
It really is a pity that you cannot test 24fps sources at the moment because for me this 4:4 pulldown looks like a good compromise between 24fps judder with everything off and the video look with regular FI on.
Therefore I am confused what 4:4 pulldown really does – initially I thought its purpose is to do a 3:2 pulldown on 60hz sources only and then repeat each frame 4 times. But simply repeating frames on sample&hold displays should have no visible effect and especially not eliminate judder.
So I suspect that 4:4 pulldown does a mild version of frame creation (at least when fed 24fps) as opposed to the intense frame creation when “frame interpolation” is on.
Looking forward for your review,
Thanks a lot for this site and Best Wishes for the holidays,
Guenther
Hi again Guenther,
First, I can test 24fps, that’s where I started with the Epson. It occurred to me, especially since some using other blu-ray players, that the problem may relate to the way the PS3 feeds 24fps.
However, I’m getting enough feedback, between comments on this blog, and direct emails, that I’m starting to wonder if it is this projector, with a problem with its frame creation software, rather than the 6500. Afterall, this is, I believe, from a small batch that arrived, prior to the first volume shipment.
I have already emailed Epson that I would like to get another one to look at, when they reopen after new years.
Most folks (in the EU), are not seeing a lot of what I am, in terms of frame creation. While some people are seeing some of what I have reported, as with your feedback it seems always less extreme, or they are not seeing the significant jerkiness I have reported, at all. This is probably very good news, for everyone considering the 6500 UB.
To answer your question: 4:4 is for 24fps only. It is Epson’s “Non-creative” frame interpolation. It takes the 24fps source and duplicates frames to give you 96. By comparison, frame interpolation settings on the epson are “creative” where the Epson analyses the first and second frames and creates new frames with objects moved to in between points, for less blur.
I’m really, seriously beginning to wonder if it isn’t simply a defective unit, in terms of frame interpolation/4:4. Additionally, the fact that 4:4 shows the same significant problem and it is not creative – and therefore a very simple thing to do cleanly, reinforces that belief. -art
December 27th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Art,
As you are in contact with Espon, did you hear anything about the 7500 having panels and optics hand picked?
There’s a rumour going around about that.
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I would consider that extremely unlikely. First of all, with the 7500 UB and the TW5000 (rest of the world’s version) being the same projector, that would have 7500 UB sales + TW50000 sales to be larger than the 6500 UB sales. It makes sense to hand pick for a very small percentage of the total units but not for a large percentage. Also, Epson’s whole purpose of having two models in the US for different distribution modes (online vs local), is why the units are different colored, the 7500 UB has anamorphic support ISF certification, comes with a mount and spare lamp. A hand picked lens would mean more to almost any buyer (except anamorphic for the very few that want it), than all that other stuff combined, and therefore Epson would be shouting it from the rafters “The 7500 UB has a better lens – the best Fujinon lenses are hand picked for the 7500 UB” for the sharpest image around…
So, not very likely. Also I doubt that there is very much variation from one lens to the next. As to panels, “worse panels” are problem panels, and wouldn’t be acceptable in any projectors – ie. dead pixels -art
December 27th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Hi, thanks for the review, comparison and your depth of knowledge. Could you please include the JVC rs-10 to your comparison and your summary since its within the price range of the 7500UB, some of us are going to buy from local Epson dealer. I am very curious to see if the little jump into a JVC is a worthwhile investment.
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Hi Shawn, I most certainly will, if the RS10 shows up. It was supposed to arrive late last week, but JVC is on vacation, so I won’t find out what happened until they reopen. Failing the RS10 arriving, I’ve already viewed the Epson side by side with my RS1. -art
December 27th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
The TW5000 is a PAL version, I believe, so here in the EU we use 25 frames ps and dont have the 3:2 pulldown.
Although I think this has nothing to do with HD material,… still maybe this makes any difference?
December 28th, 2008 at 12:59 am
Hi Art,
it’s not the PS3. I hooked a Sony 550 to the TW5000, selected X.V.Color mode, disabled 4:4 and enabled FI at Normal, then started viewing Sahara’s credit sequence. TW5000 glitches once every few seconds, exactly like it did when PS3 was feeding it.
December 28th, 2008 at 1:06 am
Can you get ask Epson engineers (and the other manufacturers) if possible for some details around how the various frame interpolation algorithms works for the various (3 on the Epson and 2 onthe Panisonic) creative frame interpolation software settings? This could help folks understand just what is going on behind the scene inside the black box that we now call creative “frame interpolation”. Each 24p frame (whether direct feed or reverse 3:3 pulldown generated) has the original + three additional frames to work with to get up to 96Hz output (or + 4 if output is 120Hz), correct? Is final output by the PJ (refresh rate if this is the correct term) the same for both 24P direct signal and a 30/0Hz signal feed? How does engaging the reverse 3:2 (what you call “stripping back 30/60 to 24P) effect this final output refresh rate? Questions for the software engineers for sure, but important becasue the ability of the Epson to take DVD 30/60 output and strip it back to 24P, then do 4:4 was IMO an important onsideration (i.e. gettting rid of 3:2 judder without the need for a player with a 24P output for std. DVDs) in my soon to be purchase decision. This is actually more important to me than how well it does the creative interpolation (although tied to it as it would be important step in the process for DVD content processing. Anyhow, I’m very pleased you are making the effort to get to the bottom of this multi-level problem. Many Thanks.
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Yes, once I muddle through this review, I will attempt to get more detailed stuff. I already have an “internal powerpoint presentation” from Epson on 4:4 and FI, but, it’s only 3 slides long! I’m asking for any white papers from the various manufacturers. I may have more look driving this when I have all my meetings at CES in two weeks. -art
December 28th, 2008 at 1:12 am
About 4:4 and FI when viewing BD’s at 24fps: I can’t stand the unnatural fluidity FI brings to the image. The 4:4 Pull-down however looks much better, and very obviously not frame interpolated. I ran the TW5000 and a JVC HD750 (i.e. RS20) side-by-side on the same screen via a HDMI splitter, and Sahara’s credit sequence looks practically identical on both with TW5000’s 4:4 enabled — Epson’s random glitches not withstanding. If one were forced to make a decision, I’d say Epson’s camera movement was ever so slightly smoother.
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Hi, OK another perspective, this is most helpful. Credits, interestingly don’t seem to be a particular challenge for the FI on the Epson, it’s those “random glitches” which are just way to frequent, that are the issue. I will relook 4:4 vs FI with 24 bit source. I didn’t notice any significant differences in the jerkiness, I will double check. -art
December 28th, 2008 at 4:08 am
Same FI glitches are displayed with Panny BD55 as the player. The glitches are not random, apparently, as the image jerks around at the same points during the Sahara credit sequence. Could be the interpolation engine simply chokes when there’s too much detail & movement.
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Perhaps. Sometimes I see the same problem repeat, some times it does seem random. Best not to worry too much, but to see what Epson does with the problem. I’m still not sold on the importance of frame interpolation. it’s nice for sports but hardly critical, for gamers, it’s probably associated with too much delay to be very practical, and for movies, well if you smooth out the bumps and jerks on an action scene, or a roller coaster ride, you end up with something tamer than intended. Would the directors of Transformers, Casino Royale, or The Dark Knight, put more shake and speed into the film if they knew how Frame Interpolation was taking the edge off of action?
I’m sure we have plenty for debate. Hopefully Epson will take some action so that it all works well, and everyone has a choice of FI on or off, but, personally I’m far more interested in the black level performance combined with lumens, and sharpness, than FI. -art
December 28th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Art:
Sorry to be back and forth…but apparently, I may not have had the best content to discover the same behavior as you, relative to my less trained eye. Now that I have spent more time on this issue with Casino Royale credit scroll and a card dealing scene, I see what you are talking about WITH my Panasonic BD 35K player. Additionally, I will say that my observations on 24p and 4:4 and conclusion / assumption mapped very tightly to Guenther’s comments above. I had the same intuitive thinking as he after looking at this closer.
December 30th, 2008 at 3:13 am
Hi Art,
I did not mean that you cannot test 24fps sources per se, just that you cannot test FI and 4:4 pulldown at 24fps without artifacts.
I think I know now why 4:4 pulldown at 24fps has less judder than 24fps with pulldown off: 24fps with 4:4 pulldown really only repeats every frame 4x at 96Hz (without frame creation) and only shows the slight judder inherent in 24fps, wheras 24fps without 4:4 displays at 60hz and introduces additional 3:2 judder.
As I said with FI I have also occasional judder and I have yet to find out if there is a difference between 24p and 60i.
But after reading your comment and others (Petri) on this blog (and reading the manual
So to get rid of 3:2 judder it is essential that at least 4:4 pulldown works without glitches.
I would have thought it does with my equipment but I am not so sure anymore after reading about your and Petri’s problems and will test further.
FI aside – if 4:4 has glitches and the Epson is therefore unable to display 24fps without 3:2 pulldown judder I would consider this a defect that is not present in other FullHD projectors and has to be fixed by Epson.
Guenther
Hmm, Hi Guenther,
You said something particularly interesting. My take is that the Epson fully supports 24fps. That means 24fps in – 24fps out. I will confirm with Epson, but I can’t see it outputting 60 with 3:2 pull-down with a 24fps input. 4:4 increases it, as you point out, to 96fps, with simple frame duplication.
24 fps is slow enough that it too has issues. It would be strange, though for Epson to take a 24fps and go to 60fps with 3:2, when it should output 24fps. If you are right, then Epson has made the decision not to support real 24fps in/out, only 24 in, 96fps (4:4) out.
That should be easy to sort out. 24 has it’s own issues being the slowest frame rate possible, and as such, it should exhibit a different type of motion blur, judder, jerkiness, etc., than 3:2 pull-down. No perfect solutions yet.
Worth looking into. I will report back. -art
December 30th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Hello Art,
I promise this is my last post regarding Epson’s problem with FI (because from now on I will start to enjoy this very fine machine
.
I have now watched the first 15mins of Casino Royale plus the end credits and from I Robot the vertical pan at the beginning of chapter three over and over with different settings.
At least with these scenes and my equipment I cannot find any problems with 24p and 4:4 pulldown engaged. I just see a slight, regular judder which I would say is the way 24fps should look. If I turn off 4:4 pulldown the judder increases but stays completely regular. I’d say with 4:4 pulldown off this is 60hz 3:2 pulldown judder.
If I then activate frame interpolation (level “normal”) the regular judder completely disappears but every 10 to 60 secs (depends on movie content) there is a short glitch, a judder, as if the picture looses sync or as if for half a second the 3:2 pulldown judder reappears. The same happens if I switch to 60i and engage FI – it’s not or not much better than with 24p.
My conclusion: 24fps works as it should (with 4:4 pulldown engaged). Frame creation has problems – in addition to the occasional judder there are also “halos” or pixel clouds aoround fast moving objects as if FI were unable to guess what should be there in the interpolated frames. I see the same effects on my Sony Motionflow TV, only much smaller
. I still hope that a firmware upgrade can improve this as the Epson has some very potent image processors and should perform better than my old Sony TV.
So now off to the movies – don’t know why but the family really prefers watching whole movies instead of repeating these intersting Casino Royale scenes…
Guenther
December 31st, 2008 at 5:15 am
Hi Art.
Never posted before, so thanks for providing informative reviews. I’ve been looking forward to the Epson review as it was my fav of the last gen for the money.
I just wanted to say that in a couple of instances you (and perhaps the manufacturers) have used the word ‘interpolation’ to describe simple repetition (pulldown). I think the term should be reserved for where a calculation is made by analysing the previous and next frames and a new image formed in-between.
Just my 2c
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Greetings Alex,
You are right on the money in terms of “interpolation”. Unfortunately projector manufacturers all talk about frame interpolation for simple 4:4, and 120fps output without real interpolation, as Frame Interpolation. For that reason, I’ve followed suit. When a projector is interpolating new frames (6500UB, PLV-Z3000, PT-AE3000), I’ve been referring to those modes as “Creative Frame Interpolation”, a term they use. -art
January 5th, 2009 at 6:31 am
Hello Art,
Thanks for an extremely detailed review of the 6500. I too share your concern about the Creative Frame Interpolation. For the most part I use the 24p 4:4 setting when watching Blu-ray disc (BD-35), but I would like to use FI for my SD library. I find the artifacts very distracting. Please do keep us posted of any firmware updates from Epson that might address the poor implementation of this feature.
Also, I wonder how you would compare the auto-iris on the 6500 to the Panasonic 3000? In low brightness mode (low fan), I find the iris ‘chatter’ to be rather annoying on the 6500 which is ceiling mounted overhead. In Bright mode the fan does mask the noise somewhat. Is the iris as noisy on the 3000 in low fan mode?
And lastly, how would you compare the HDMI handshaking time between the 6500 and the 3000? I find that it seems rather sluggish on 6500 when connecting with the BD-35. Sometimes the menu audio starts before the image is even available. Perhaps they are all this slow, but it might be something to add to your reviews in the future if there is a large difference in models.
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Hi!
Will do, of course, regarding the Frame Interpolation.
You are correct, that low rumbly sound of the dynamic iris is there. I run primarily in full lamp power, and, of course, not ceiling mounted while testing. With the projector 3 – 3.5 feet behind me, I don’t notice it. (Of course, one’s ears are best at hearing things in front of us, and probably above us, better than behind us.) In my extensive viewing (at least 40 hours in my large theater), I didn’t consider it a problem, but I know a number of people are more “noise adverse” than I am. I felt the iris noise was a little bit lower than the older 1080UB, but the 6500UB is still, overall, a noisier projector than the other 3LCD projectors (and also brighter).
I do wonder, however, if, with a ceiling mount, if the noise is being magnified by the vibrations through the mount, making the mount, as well, part of the resonating surface. The feet on most projectors is a hard rubber or plastic, and may prevent the table, for a table mounted projector (the way I view), from “amplifying” the noise. If that is what is happening, then it may (purely a guess) be possible for the addition of some rubber spacers in the mounting, to alleviate the issue somewhat.
You raise a good point about the HDMI handshaking, (does the same on my PS3) or whatever is causing the long switchover times. The Epson, it seems often takes 4-8 seconds when the source material input changes, such as when switching from a 1080i signal to standard def TV and in reverse. It is also a slow switching from HDTV to Blu-ray, or the other way, but I do believe the delay times are longer when 4:4 and frame interpolation are engaged. Check it out. I did find it to be a nuisance, when I was, unfortunately, watching football one day, switching between a hi-def channel for one game, and low-def for another. Made it impossible to quickly switch back and forth trying to catch each play on both games.
I pointed out the long lag time issue to the Epson Japan engineers in my meeting with them on Saturday. Can’t promise, but, that too, will probably be looked into by Epson. We shall see. The Panasonic isn’t exactly lightning fast, but lets say 1-2 seconds, vs 4-8. That’s a notable difference. Of course, when we are all doing serious viewing of movies, once we are started watching, it’s a non-issue. There’s no delay coming in and out of pause.
OK, that’s it for now. -art
January 9th, 2009 at 4:37 am
Hello! The review on UV6500 was simply excellent. I was wondering, though, whether this device can support pure 120hz input, WITHOUT any interpolation. This is required in order for the new nvidia 3d glasses to work.. All in all I wonder whether this projector is able to support this kind of hardware.
Thank you and best regards,
Evans
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Greetings Evans,
Very good question. To the best of my knowledge (not that I’ve checked), I’m not aware of any home theater projectors accepting a straight 120 input. If any do, my bet is they are all DLP projectors, as TI see’s 3D as the way to “save” DLP. (The collapse of the DLP and LCD big screen rear projection market has been fast and dramatic. That market was far larger than the DLP front projector market.) You HTPC users, would better know than I. I saw the nvidia display doing Guitar Hero, with the glasses, at CES. Very impressive!
I will start asking manufacturers though.
January 12th, 2009 at 3:49 am
Hello,
I have a TW5000 on a PS3. After doing some tests, I find on my unit, that with 24p output, the frame interpolation setting ‘high’ produces less jerkiness than ‘normal’.
Using no frame interpolation and swithing off 4:4 pulldown, the picture is less smooth than with 4:4. So the 4:4 pulldown even without frame interpolation improves picture quality somehow.
I got my TW5000 from the fist bunch around Christmas. I like the sharp picture when using frame interpolation, especially in space movies ( ‘Serenity’ looks great … ). So I normally use fi set to ‘high’. There a some jerks in the picture, lets say about 2 per minute. I hope the Epson guys will fix this in some later firmware revision.
So it would be great, if you post here, if you get news from Epson.
Btw, how can I determine the firmware of my unit. Is there a hidden Service Menu in the Epson TW5000 somewhere ?
Best regards from Germany !
Marc
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Hi Marc,
Don’t know about where to find the firmware, but if Epson does make a change, I’ll find out that info, and report on it. Any change relating to the frame interpolation will get immediate attention from me. -art
January 16th, 2009 at 7:10 am
Mark,
Thank you for your response. I think I will get the LCD Epson anyway, since I don’t believe that the DLP rainbows hide at their bottom anymore any noteworthy treasures.
Please, drop me an e-mail, however, if you happen to have any update on this, since it is a really big step forward in which I am really interested.
Thanks again and keep up the good work!!
Evans
January 26th, 2009 at 5:01 am
Hi Art,
A question,
You say that Epson’s engineers told you the following “When engaging frame interpolation on the Epson’s if feeding a 30/60 fps source, the Epson strips it back to 24fps before adding frame interpolation” this means that you could always have the 24fps turned off and still get 24fps interpolated and the issue with the PS3 is gone or have I misunderstood?
/Patrik
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Greetings Patrik,
Sorry if I confused you and others. Yes, that’s what the Epson does – strips back the 60 to its original non 3:2 pull-down 24fps of the source.
The problem is, that is where the Epson provides the worst performance! The problems with frame interpolation from a straight 24fps (Blu-ray, etc.) are still present, and even worse, in some cases. I suspect there is some additional errors coming from the stripping back to 24fps, when compared to just starting with a clean 24fps. Best recommendation: forget frame interpolation on anything that was originally 24fps (including movies coming across on HDTV channels at 60fps).
Use 4:4 for Blu-ray titles. Use FI for sports. FI does has some issues with standard 60fps as well, so it’s your call, depending on what you are watching.
Epson’s problem, it seems, is trying to tackle more than the other two companies – Panasonic and Sanyo, which don’t even try to do FI with 24fps source material!
That’s my best recommendation. Had Epson skipped the option for FI with 24fps source, then all the areas where they have the worst performance would be gone, and no one would be screaming. They just tried to bite off more than they could (or rather Pixelworks could), engineer.
Good creative FI on 24fps source material should be a very good option for users to choose, but no one’s got a really clean solution yet. Next year, hopefully. -art
February 4th, 2009 at 1:01 am
Hello,
After reading the above posts, I switched off 24p on my PS3 and have now 60frames /s feed to the 6500UB.
On the 6500 I use medium frame interpolation. At least in this combination the jerkiness is nearly gone and much better that using 24p from the PS3.
Owners of an PS3 / 6500 UB combination should try out this settings, if they like to use frame interpolation.
Best regards
Marc
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Greetings Marc,
I agree with you completely. The almost all of the issues (and the severe ones) come into play when the Epson is working with 24fps. Their attempt to create 4 unique frames between each original seems to be a case of Pixelworks (who provides their FI) biting off more than they can chew. Consider, neither the Panasonic PT-AE3000 nor the Sanyo PLV-Z3000 even attempt creative frame interpolation with 24fps. That’s right!
Then there’s 24fps source material coming in over HDTV at 60. In this case, the Epson strips the 60fps back to 24fps, eliminating 3:2 pull-down judder, then again, tries to create 4 new frames between each. That, if possible is worse at times, as there is probably some additional occasional error in the going back to 24fps. Here the other brands differ in their approach. As I understand it, the Panasonic, and the Sanyo too, I think, when they get 24fps content delivered over 60, they don’t strip it back to 24, they leave in the 3:2 pull-down, but creatively add one frame in between each two originals to get up to 120 fps. So that still leaves the 3:2 pull-down judder happening, but does smooth the fast moving motion slightly.
So, I guess you could say, that Epson has boldly (but not overly successfully) gone, where other projectors have dared not go at all.
Still, in time, I imagine they will get it right, but that is sure a lot of image processing. Consider, when handling sports the Epson is only creating one frame between each pair, just like the Panasonic and Sanyo. Mitsubishi, btw, doesn’t do any creative frame interpolation.
Of course in a couple of years it will probably be a standard feature on most 1080p projectors.
-art
August 3rd, 2009 at 9:29 am
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September 18th, 2009 at 1:33 am
Hi,
I have the EPSON for a few weeks now. I was amazed and a bit disappointed because of the soap opera-look.
Thx to the info above, I am just amazed
Cheers