I have the EPSON for a few weeks now. I was amazed and a bit disappointed because of the soap opera-look.

Thx to the info above, I am just amazed

Cheers

After reading the above posts, I switched off 24p on my PS3 and have now 60frames /s feed to the 6500UB.

On the 6500 I use medium frame interpolation. At least in this combination the jerkiness is nearly gone and much better that using 24p from the PS3.

Owners of an PS3 / 6500 UB combination should try out this settings, if they like to use frame interpolation.

Best regards
Marc

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Greetings Marc,

I agree with you completely. The almost all of the issues (and the severe ones) come into play when the Epson is working with 24fps. Their attempt to create 4 unique frames between each original seems to be a case of Pixelworks (who provides their FI) biting off more than they can chew. Consider, neither the Panasonic PT-AE3000 nor the Sanyo PLV-Z3000 even attempt creative frame interpolation with 24fps. That’s right!
Then there’s 24fps source material coming in over HDTV at 60. In this case, the Epson strips the 60fps back to 24fps, eliminating 3:2 pull-down judder, then again, tries to create 4 new frames between each. That, if possible is worse at times, as there is probably some additional occasional error in the going back to 24fps. Here the other brands differ in their approach. As I understand it, the Panasonic, and the Sanyo too, I think, when they get 24fps content delivered over 60, they don’t strip it back to 24, they leave in the 3:2 pull-down, but creatively add one frame in between each two originals to get up to 120 fps. So that still leaves the 3:2 pull-down judder happening, but does smooth the fast moving motion slightly.

So, I guess you could say, that Epson has boldly (but not overly successfully) gone, where other projectors have dared not go at all.

Still, in time, I imagine they will get it right, but that is sure a lot of image processing. Consider, when handling sports the Epson is only creating one frame between each pair, just like the Panasonic and Sanyo. Mitsubishi, btw, doesn’t do any creative frame interpolation.

Of course in a couple of years it will probably be a standard feature on most 1080p projectors.
-art

A question,

You say that Epson’s engineers told you the following “When engaging frame interpolation on the Epson’s if feeding a 30/60 fps source, the Epson strips it back to 24fps before adding frame interpolation” this means that you could always have the 24fps turned off and still get 24fps interpolated and the issue with the PS3 is gone or have I misunderstood?

/Patrik

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Greetings Patrik,

Sorry if I confused you and others. Yes, that’s what the Epson does - strips back the 60 to its original non 3:2 pull-down 24fps of the source.

The problem is, that is where the Epson provides the worst performance! The problems with frame interpolation from a straight 24fps (Blu-ray, etc.) are still present, and even worse, in some cases. I suspect there is some additional errors coming from the stripping back to 24fps, when compared to just starting with a clean 24fps. Best recommendation: forget frame interpolation on anything that was originally 24fps (including movies coming across on HDTV channels at 60fps).

Use 4:4 for Blu-ray titles. Use FI for sports. FI does has some issues with standard 60fps as well, so it’s your call, depending on what you are watching.

Epson’s problem, it seems, is trying to tackle more than the other two companies - Panasonic and Sanyo, which don’t even try to do FI with 24fps source material!

That’s my best recommendation. Had Epson skipped the option for FI with 24fps source, then all the areas where they have the worst performance would be gone, and no one would be screaming. They just tried to bite off more than they could (or rather Pixelworks could), engineer.

Good creative FI on 24fps source material should be a very good option for users to choose, but no one’s got a really clean solution yet. Next year, hopefully. -art

Thank you for your response. I think I will get the LCD Epson anyway, since I don’t believe that the DLP rainbows hide at their bottom anymore any noteworthy treasures.

Please, drop me an e-mail, however, if you happen to have any update on this, since it is a really big step forward in which I am really interested.

Thanks again and keep up the good work!!

Evans

I have a TW5000 on a PS3. After doing some tests, I find on my unit, that with 24p output, the frame interpolation setting ‘high’ produces less jerkiness than ‘normal’.

Using no frame interpolation and swithing off 4:4 pulldown, the picture is less smooth than with 4:4. So the 4:4 pulldown even without frame interpolation improves picture quality somehow.

I got my TW5000 from the fist bunch around Christmas. I like the sharp picture when using frame interpolation, especially in space movies ( ‘Serenity’ looks great … ). So I normally use fi set to ‘high’. There a some jerks in the picture, lets say about 2 per minute. I hope the Epson guys will fix this in some later firmware revision.

So it would be great, if you post here, if you get news from Epson.

Btw, how can I determine the firmware of my unit. Is there a hidden Service Menu in the Epson TW5000 somewhere ?

Best regards from Germany !

Marc

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Hi Marc,

Don’t know about where to find the firmware, but if Epson does make a change, I’ll find out that info, and report on it. Any change relating to the frame interpolation will get immediate attention from me. -art

Thank you and best regards,

Evans

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Greetings Evans,

Very good question. To the best of my knowledge (not that I’ve checked), I’m not aware of any home theater projectors accepting a straight 120 input. If any do, my bet is they are all DLP projectors, as TI see’s 3D as the way to “save” DLP. (The collapse of the DLP and LCD big screen rear projection market has been fast and dramatic. That market was far larger than the DLP front projector market.) You HTPC users, would better know than I. I saw the nvidia display doing Guitar Hero, with the glasses, at CES. Very impressive!

I will start asking manufacturers though.

Also, I wonder how you would compare the auto-iris on the 6500 to the Panasonic 3000? In low brightness mode (low fan), I find the iris ‘chatter’ to be rather annoying on the 6500 which is ceiling mounted overhead. In Bright mode the fan does mask the noise somewhat. Is the iris as noisy on the 3000 in low fan mode?

And lastly, how would you compare the HDMI handshaking time between the 6500 and the 3000? I find that it seems rather sluggish on 6500 when connecting with the BD-35. Sometimes the menu audio starts before the image is even available. Perhaps they are all this slow, but it might be something to add to your reviews in the future if there is a large difference in models.

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Hi!

Will do, of course, regarding the Frame Interpolation.

You are correct, that low rumbly sound of the dynamic iris is there. I run primarily in full lamp power, and, of course, not ceiling mounted while testing. With the projector 3 - 3.5 feet behind me, I don’t notice it. (Of course, one’s ears are best at hearing things in front of us, and probably above us, better than behind us.) In my extensive viewing (at least 40 hours in my large theater), I didn’t consider it a problem, but I know a number of people are more “noise adverse” than I am. I felt the iris noise was a little bit lower than the older 1080UB, but the 6500UB is still, overall, a noisier projector than the other 3LCD projectors (and also brighter).

I do wonder, however, if, with a ceiling mount, if the noise is being magnified by the vibrations through the mount, making the mount, as well, part of the resonating surface. The feet on most projectors is a hard rubber or plastic, and may prevent the table, for a table mounted projector (the way I view), from “amplifying” the noise. If that is what is happening, then it may (purely a guess) be possible for the addition of some rubber spacers in the mounting, to alleviate the issue somewhat.

You raise a good point about the HDMI handshaking, (does the same on my PS3) or whatever is causing the long switchover times. The Epson, it seems often takes 4-8 seconds when the source material input changes, such as when switching from a 1080i signal to standard def TV and in reverse. It is also a slow switching from HDTV to Blu-ray, or the other way, but I do believe the delay times are longer when 4:4 and frame interpolation are engaged. Check it out. I did find it to be a nuisance, when I was, unfortunately, watching football one day, switching between a hi-def channel for one game, and low-def for another. Made it impossible to quickly switch back and forth trying to catch each play on both games.

I pointed out the long lag time issue to the Epson Japan engineers in my meeting with them on Saturday. Can’t promise, but, that too, will probably be looked into by Epson. We shall see. The Panasonic isn’t exactly lightning fast, but lets say 1-2 seconds, vs 4-8. That’s a notable difference. Of course, when we are all doing serious viewing of movies, once we are started watching, it’s a non-issue. There’s no delay coming in and out of pause.

OK, that’s it for now. -art

Greetings Alex,

You are right on the money in terms of “interpolation”. Unfortunately projector manufacturers all talk about frame interpolation for simple 4:4, and 120fps output without real interpolation, as Frame Interpolation. For that reason, I’ve followed suit. When a projector is interpolating new frames (6500UB, PLV-Z3000, PT-AE3000), I’ve been referring to those modes as “Creative Frame Interpolation”, a term they use. -art

I promise this is my last post regarding Epson’s problem with FI (because from now on I will start to enjoy this very fine machine ;-).

I have now watched the first 15mins of Casino Royale plus the end credits and from I Robot the vertical pan at the beginning of chapter three over and over with different settings.
At least with these scenes and my equipment I cannot find any problems with 24p and 4:4 pulldown engaged. I just see a slight, regular judder which I would say is the way 24fps should look. If I turn off 4:4 pulldown the judder increases but stays completely regular. I’d say with 4:4 pulldown off this is 60hz 3:2 pulldown judder.
If I then activate frame interpolation (level “normal”) the regular judder completely disappears but every 10 to 60 secs (depends on movie content) there is a short glitch, a judder, as if the picture looses sync or as if for half a second the 3:2 pulldown judder reappears. The same happens if I switch to 60i and engage FI - it’s not or not much better than with 24p.

My conclusion: 24fps works as it should (with 4:4 pulldown engaged). Frame creation has problems - in addition to the occasional judder there are also “halos” or pixel clouds aoround fast moving objects as if FI were unable to guess what should be there in the interpolated frames. I see the same effects on my Sony Motionflow TV, only much smaller ;-). I still hope that a firmware upgrade can improve this as the Epson has some very potent image processors and should perform better than my old Sony TV.

So now off to the movies - don’t know why but the family really prefers watching whole movies instead of repeating these intersting Casino Royale scenes…

Guenther