Epson Home Cinema 6500UB - Brightness - and new meter
December 27th, 2008 Art Feierman
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Greetings everyone,
Ahh, issues, issues. As many of you know, in the first blog on the Epson Home Cinema 6500UB, I reported preliminary brightness readings, taken by Mike, with his new light meter. Since we know, historically, that our measurements with his (or my) Optic One setup typically reports brightness measurements about 10-20% higher than other reviewers, it becomes important that we provide all of you a basis for comparison.
To do that, we wanted to measure both the Epson, and the Panasonic PT-AE3000 with both our old, and new setup. That way, you could see, for example, that measurements using the new meter are x% lower than the old meter, so you could compare, say the 1253 lumens on the Epson against the 1116 of the Panasonic. If the new meter produces 20% lower lumens, then to compare apples to apples, increase the new measurements by 25% or drop the old ones by 20%, etc…
When Mike came over to do that, we discovered that the new meter measurements were not only significantly lower than the old, but to a rather drastic amount, in that we are getting numbers with the new gear, that are now significantly lower than others are reporting.
We suspect the meter. Again, it’s the holidays so not much we can do about it until next week.
Bottom line, for now, however, is that here are our measurements for the Epson with both the old, and new, equipment. Use the “old” Optic One measurements, to compare the Epson with previous reviews. We’ll sort out the metering problem in the next week or two.
Conclusion: The Epson Home Cinema 6500UB is brighter (relative to other projectors) than the first blog reported.
Here’s the scoop:
Best mode (TheaterBlack 1):
Old system (Optic One): 682 lumens
New system: 421 lumens
Brightest mode (Dynamic):
Old system: 2175 lumens
New system: 1253 lumens
The TRUTH and reality, is apparently somewhere between the two different sets of measurements!
The Epson Pro Cinema 7500UB and the international version, the TW5000 should have the same brightness as the Home Cinema 6500UB, although some of the mode names are different.
Now, according to Epson, thanks to the new, and brighter lamp 200 watts vs 170 watts, the 6500 UB should be brighter than the older 1080 UB (despite the same published spec from Epson), and, that too, would tend to support the idea that the new meter is coming up with low readings, as the 1080 UB, was about 468 lumens, if I recall correctly. Also, the uncalibrated Dynamic mode of the 1080 UB was about 1818 lumens.
The new meter is measuring significantly lower than other reviewers are reporting.
All sets of measurements above were taken with the lens at the mid-point zoom.
My recommendation. Until we check the new meter, use the old measurements for comparing with other projectors measurements. Our measurements will be consistent from review to review, even if consistently higher than other reviewers’ published measurements.
Our comments regarding brightness relative to screen recommendations and sizes, are subjective, and are based on extensive viewing, not on measurements, so those recommendations are not affected by what meters we use.
The important thing - relative to the first blog, is that this Epson is very bright. Of the 4 “top of the line” 3LCD projectors - 6500UB, Mitsubishi HC7000, Sanyo PLV-Z3000, and Panasonic PT-AE3000, the Epson is definitely the brightest in brightest mode, and in best mode, although not by great amounts, depending on which projector you compare it to. That said, there are DLP and LCoS projectors that are brighter in best mode, and only a couple of DLP projectors that can best it in brightest mode, the InFocus IN83, and the Optoma HD81-LV.
Regardless of which set of lumen measurements you stare at, the Epson still doesn’t have the horsepower to fill my 128″ Firehawk G3, in TheaterBlack1 (best) mode. The Epson does look really good, though when I reduce the image size to the 110″ diagonal range, and I’d say it can be pushed a little more, but, remember the lamp will dim over time, so 110″ is my recommendation, at least for a high contrast gray surface, and a room that doesn’t have dark walls (Dark walls are coming, the room gets painted in less than two weeks).
I will report the measurements from both in the final review. -art
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December 27th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Art:
Interesting measurements on brightness. Thanks for reporting both so we can do an apples to apples. In your RS1 review you detected 654 low lamp mode and 773 high lamp…so 682 on this pj puts it at equal footing pretty much in “best” mode. However, please clarify, was the pj in low lamp or high lamp when you took these measurements? I am assuming it was in low lamp since the default lamp level on this pj is “High” for Dynamic, Living Room, and Natural, but “Low” for Theater Black 1 and 2. When I did a quick calibration and then measured brightness using 100 gray on DVE and an Eye-One Display LT, I got 9.5 ftL on TB1 low lamp and 11.7 in TB1 high lamp. Maybe you should test out TB1 in high lamp mode on a larger screen? Or, just use it as insurance for kicking up the lamp as the bulb ages, but being able to maintain TB1 as the movie watching mode? Anyway, I think my measurements are not accurate in absolute either…as I know the Display LT is not as good as many other probes…..but the relative numbers are meaningful. Note, after gray scale calibration I also had 22 ftL in Living Room Low lamp and 29.1 ftL in living Room High lamp (before and after calib), and uncalibrated in Dynamic I had 26.5 low lamp and 35 high lamp.
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Sorry, no - everything I measure is high lamp, unless otherwise mentioned. For each projector all measurements are Hi, except for one in Low, so I can determine the drop in lumens by going to Low (which should be the same drop for any color mode). I failed to note that in the blog. Also the 682 was uncalibrated, it drops by about 100 lumens calibrated, widening the range between the JVC and Epson. The JVC was virtually identical calibrated or not.
You didn’t provide a screen size for your ft-lamberts. I could reverse engineer, but I’m just trying to get some quick replies in. I’m primarily working on the full review, and if it makes it at all, tonight, it will be probably 2am here on the US west coast, before done. -art
December 28th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Epsons 682 Lumens against the JVC RS2 537 Lumen in High-mode and 448 Lumen in Low-mode. and JVC RS1 773 in High-mode and 654 Lumens Low-mode.
I’ll say VERY IMPRESSIVE.
Yes, but not as bright as the RS1- with the Epson having 581 lumens calibrated, against the JVC’s roughly 200 more lumens. It’s the lower RS2 lumens that prevented me from buying one due to my 128″ screen size. -art
December 28th, 2008 at 8:35 am
I think the 682 is in Low-mode so when the lamp is dimmer we can put the lamp in High?
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No, 682 was the high lamp measurement (uncalibrated) with the “old” Optic One equipment.
Low lamp was 531 lumens. High lamp calibrated is 587.
-art
December 28th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Art,
A quick noobie question(s).
My first pj. Ceiling recessed 92″ Draper high contrast grey screen. 8′high walls in a multi-use room. Likely installing at 11″ from screen and on a ceiling mount. Epson calculator shows 9′ is the optimal distance from the screen for the pj
Q:How do exactly do I figure the vertical offset? The epson calculator lists -20.8″-60.9″. Is that from the center of the screen?
Thx,
Al
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Hi Al,
OK, first, the 9 foot distance, is the closest, not necessarily the optimal setup, but the one that is the brightest. Many would tell you to back it up, at least a little, for at the expense of not too many lumens, you will get a slightly wider viewing cone (with your HC gray screen), less visible roll-off in the corners, and there are other optical issues that generally lead to the recommendation of “anything in moderation…is better than anything overdone”. As such, with a wide range zoom, I’d say best advice is to not use either extreme, but move to the center by 10%. We are, however quibbling about very minor things.
As to vertical offset - start with the numbers I provided on the Performance page for a 100 inch screen. Since yours is a 92″, reduce the maximum offset by 8%, since your screen is 8% smaller - that will reduce the maximum offset by about 2 inches. -art
December 28th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Good point, my screen is 112″ 1.78 at 14.4 feet from the pj with centerline of pj lens about 2″ below top of screen (so you can see how much it is shifted). While the screen inside of border is 112″, it is really zoomed to an image of about 114″ due to the overscan on the velvet frame. It is an SMX or equivalent (sheerweave 4500 I think) acoustic transparent screen rated at 1.16 gain. Based on these facts, I just reverse calculated that my cheap $126 Display LT sensor measured High Lamp TB1 uncalibrated at 400 lumens and 388 at greyscale calibrated only (again, mine was very close to calibrated greyscale upon receipt). For Living Room low lamp calibrated I had 730 lumens and for Living Room high lamp calibrated I had 965 lumens. Max measured was Dynamic mode uncalibrated at 1165 lumens or so. Again, to all other readers of this comment, these numbers are good within this comment for relative determination. Art’s numbers based on Old System should be followed for all previous review comparisons of side by side
December 30th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Art:
How loud was the Dynamic Iris when engaged? I had to return a 6100 because of the horrible noise, and from what others are saying, it is typical of the Epson design.
Thanks
Mick
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Greetings Mike,
That’s really strange. One of the first things I considered with the 6500UB and the 6100 was the dynamic iris noise. My take was that it was significantly improved over the 1080 UB, and should no longer be an issue, except by the same audio noise sensitive folks who also can’t live with projectors that are rated much above 25db. Mind you I have been mostly using the High Speed setting, really haven’t watched with the standard setting. Oh, it’s very evident, as the projector locks on to a source, goes into mode, and resets the iris, etc., but I just haven’t noticed it at all during normal viewing.
It’s possible there is variation from projector to projector - which was also reported with the 1080 UB, however, while writing this, I switched from college football, to a movie for several minutes, with volume off (faint music from my daughter in another room is in the background). I can, when I turn an ear to the projector, from my seat just about 3 feet away (my head at the same height as the lens), and all I can hear of the iris is a very faint rumbling as it operates. I’d say, that, at its loudest, it is still well below the fan noise. An intermittent sound, would be more noticeable than a continuous fan, but it’s low enough overall, that I have zero problem with it. Definitely not a problem with the 6500UB, nor I think, for the 6100UB, as I shot a lot of side by sides with the 6100 last night, with no sound going in the testing room, and only rarely noticed the faint rumbling, except when I’d pop in a new disc.
Bottom line: From the two units I have here, I can’t say that the iris is completely undetectable, but based on these two, it can’t be a problem for the vast majority… - unless, perhaps you have a projector somewhere on a hard surface, and it is picking up the vibration, and making it more noticeable. In my viewing room, the projector sits on a soft surface, in my testing room it’s on a hardwood desk less than 4 feet in front of me. -art
December 30th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Cool…the 6100 is back. First thoughts?
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The 6100’s “First Look” is posted! -art
December 30th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
When is the competitors section going to be filled out? I think I’m about to break the refresh button in my browser waiting for that to happen.
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Sorry Matt, I’m slammed. I’ve started it (about 20%), but I’m done until Friday, when friends in for the Rose Bowl (Go Penn State!) game tomorrow and NYE, go back home. I suspect, though, if you look, the review itself does touch on differences, and preferences for most of those projectors.
In reality, the 6500UB stacks up about the same as the 1080 UB last year - my favorite of the 3LCD projectors, and better in black levels than the lower cost Sony - VPL-HW10, but not up to the JVC’s.
None of the DLP’s can match the 6500 UB on dark scenes for black level performance though a number of projectors have a small advantage in very dark shadow detail. The Epson though, compared to the other 3LCD projectors and the DLP’s, has a richer more dynamic look to dark scenes, with blacks at least enough blacker, to make a difference - even against the PT-AE3000.
As I pointed out, the 6500 UB’s sharpness is now “very sharp” overall, with no other projectors enough better for anyone (in my opinion) to consider that a factor. The other stuff all still applies - audible noise levels, etc. The 6500 UB, as is Epson tradition, has more “pop” and “wow” factor, overall, than most of the competition, but the trade-off, as I describe it, is a little less “film-like”.
Like the 1080 UB before it, my take is that it is the best overall, of the lower cost (under $3,000 street) projectors, and I doubt I would consider anything short of the JVC RS1, or RS10 (when I review it) as enough of a step up, to rationalize a greater expense. Happy New Year. -art
December 31st, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Will you have CIE charts for the Epson 6500? How do the REC 709 colors etc look, any pushed colors that can not be tamed?
Thank you for your work and input!
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Yes, I do have a CIE chart, and should have put it up a while ago. Remember, we don’t calibrate the individual colors so the CIE should remain unchanged by our calibration. -art
December 31st, 2008 at 11:30 pm
RS1 that was made such a long time ago, is still a step up ? Wasn’t 1080ub already pretty close to it in blacks? And isn’t RS1 image softer and with oversaturated colors?
I’m gonna check for reply on the weekend ( or read the competitors section which might serve just as well ). Thanks.
Yes, the RS1 is still a step up. It combines great black levels with more “film-like” than the Epson. I’ve watched the Epson set up side by side with the RS1. I’ll still keep my RS1 over the UB, though I sure wish it had the lumen output of the Epson in brightest mode.
At it’s best (the right, dark scenes, with no significantly bright areas at all), the Epson can match the RS1 in terms of blacks, but on mixed scenes, the RS1 will do a tad better, and have better dynamic range, as the Epson, and for that matter, probably any projector with a dynamic iris is usually willing to compress the brightest small areas slightly to get the blacks blacker. -art
January 1st, 2009 at 10:16 am
Thanks for all the info regarding the UB6500. I live in Macau and am working with a reputable vendor in Hong Kong to purchace the TW 4000. I was told the II IS the UB6500. Is that correct? If so, what is the TW5000?
Thanks again-Bo
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Greetings Bo,
The TW4000 should be the international version of the Pro Cinema 7500 UB in the US. It may be that the TW5000 is the designation in the EU, and the TW4000 in asia. I can’t be sure. The TW5000 is definitely the same basic projector as the Pro Cinema 7500UB. that means frame interpolation, better black levels, etc. I’ve just searched online, and from what dealers are posting in Australia, and elsewhere, the TW4000 has the same basic specs as the 7500UB and TW5000. Another possibility, is that there is difference between the 4000 and 5000 that are equivalent tot he 6500UB and 7500UB here in the US. Both have the new, longer life (4000 hours in full power - according to Epson) lamp, as well.
Look for these possible differences - Does the TW4000 have internal support for an anamorphic lens?
The TW5000 and 7500UB do. The 6500UB does not. The 6500UB comes in a white case, but that is no doubt selective marketing for the US, and Epson America’s two branch distribution strategy - to differentiate the products. The online dealers get the 6500UB, the local installing dealers, the 7500UB.
Sorry I couldn’t be more definitive, but you should be able to sort it out from there! Anyone out there know for sure? -art
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:28 am
Hi Art,
Sorry about Penn State, I was rooting for them! Just getting back to you regarding the Mits hc7000 that I purchased. Very happy with it so far, seems to be bright enough with the 100 inch white screen and its crystal clear in detail with the pioneer elite pdp05fd blue ray I’m running. Two tech questions, when they installed it the manual said 123-197 inches from lens to screen was the range. Thus mid way was 13.3 inches, they have placed it at 15.3, I had thought they were going to place it 13.3 but possibly because of the ceiling stud it was easier to do.Knowing that this projector is on the dimmer side in general, would this extra distance affect the brightness or picture quality by much.They have said it makes no difference as long as it is in the recommended range.Also my room walls are a light butterscotch cream and I am planning on painting them this week.Possible a dark chocolate or the dark rust you are doing yours sounds interesting..do you have the paint brand and color? Lastly, when a pro calibration is done, what do they do or use over and above me say going out and buying a DVE disc and doing it myself? I will be interested to view you comments on the comparison between the Epson 6500 and the hc 7000 when you get time to do it..cheers Greg
January 6th, 2009 at 5:42 am
Your review of the 6100 has the light readings at Theature/black 1-687 and dynamic at 2057. The 6500 comes in at 685 and 2157? I was hoping the 6100 would have been brighter in dynamic and a little higher in Theature/black 1. I have a 120″ screen w/1.1 gain. Hard to control light and light colored walls. I will need to use Living room setting most likely for that size screen. My question is, is the shadow detail on the 6100 better and is it brighter? I can appreciate the 6500 having deper blacks but fear that advantage would be lost in a poorly darkened room. Also thanks for having one of the best sites to find reviews and one of the best sites for getting reviews out first. (there is currently a 700 dollar difference between these models-worth the difference?)
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Hi Tom,
I’ll answer both comments in this one. First, your room is much like mine (light walls), although mine have just been painted dark rust (they are just finishing today). I’ll be able to blog about the differences relating to screen size, over the next couple of weeks, as I get used to the “new” room.
As I have said in the review, with white walls (and my Stewart Firehawk G3 - high contrast gray), I find about 110″ as large as one can get a “good relatively bright” image with. Livingroom provides plenty of extra horsepower though. Brightness between 6100 and 6500UB is close enough to be a non-issue. Shadow detail. Pretty much the same, but, I have found over playing with many projectors, those without the better black performance, tend to reveal a little more shadow detail. That said, between these two, it’s going to be slight, and I wouldn’t think, an issue. Both have the same characteristics to shadow detail, just losing a bit of the darkest, but a bit more than some other projectors. It’s more about having large very dark areas and losing enough detail to get a large “flat” area lacking any detail. Both projectors do well enough in shadow detail. Sure, if you want to pause, and go hunting for the finer really dark details, you can see differences, but in general viewing the subtle differences tend to be in background, black clothes, etc., not the stuff you eye is drawn to.
Overall, my take is that, yes the UB is worth the difference, for those of us looking for “best possible” within a budget. While it is true that any ambient light seriously affects black levels and shadow detail performance, a projector with better blacks will still look better in low light, or no light, but with light walls/ceiling/floor, even though you are not getting all the rich, inky dark blacks that we crave for. -art
January 6th, 2009 at 6:24 am
Also sorry for not posting this question earlier. I have a gaming computer that I currently have projecting a 1024 by 720 image. It is beautiful to play on a 120″ screen. Do you know the highest possible resolution the 6100/6500 can display natively from a computer source?
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Not sure, however, there should be an appendix in the Epson manual that will give you all the resolutions supported. Better still, you might want to call into their support, and ask them if there’s a way to get it to go up another resolution step. Theoretically, the highest working resolution for 4:3 on a 1080p projector would be SXGA+ - which is 1400×1050. -art
January 6th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Art - thanks for all of your in-depth reviews! I assume that your screen recommendations are based on the mid-point of projector placement (mid-zoom.)With a sunken-floor in the room directly above my theater, I need to keep the projector close to its widest zoom (14 feet from screen or less.) So if the screens recommeded are at mid, approximately what percentage increase in diag size could I get away with? For instance, you say on the 6500UB 110 is about maximum (although my walls are a dark rust.) My screen is 126″ and I really am considering the W20000 or 7500UB upon its release. Which would be better for the larger screen? Would the AE3000 even be a consideration (I like all of it’s features) or even say jump to the RS20 (but the lower lumens tend to make me think HD, Sports, and Gaming would be a problem in mid-level lighting conditions.) Thanks Art- and here’s to a great 2009!
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Greetings Scott,
Looks like you have most of this sorted out. I passed on the RS2, because of my large screen, and it’s low lumens, but the RS20 is supposed to be almost as bright as the RS1 I use. Note, I wish I had more lumens with the RS1 in brightest mode, but with my shades down (but leaking light) and my off white walls and ceiling, it does an adequate (make that “respectable” job for my sports and HDTV viewing (more would, however, be better). As of this afternoon, my walls are now dark rust colored, but it will be tomorrow night, or more likely Wed. evening before I have all the equipment back in the room and wired up, to see how much of a difference the off-white vs. dark rust color makes in maximum screen size. I will blog on that in the next week or so. I don’t see the Epson being able to handle a full 126″ screen in full power, but if you are mounted at virtually full wide angle, the extra 15-20% brightness might be enough to do the trick for “best” mode viewing. -a