Hi Art,

What about the great depth you talked about in your original blog? I’m not hearing much about that anymore. You also mentioned in your original comments that this projector had more of a “video” look to it than others. Were your first hours with the Epson with frame interpolation “on”? Is the Epson just another typical projector with somewhat better “blacks” and contrast and a slightly less film-like but standard 2D image? I was very enthusiastic about this projector after your original comments, but not so much now, I’m beginning to feel that the Panasonic may be a better option.
****************
Hi,

Yes the video look is with frame interpolation on. I’m finding Blu-ray discs look good with 4:4 on, and no frame interpolation. Frame interpolation in general has problems at 24fps, Off of HDTV I’m finding that frame interpolation works well for sports, but movies are a real issue. I’m used to switching between frame interpolation or 4:4 on, or off for different content. You are correct, that “live digital video” look is not present with out those features engaged, and is not a problem on 4:4. Yes the 6500UB has the better blacks too. My own taste, since I have no need for the anamorphic emulation aspects, and like having extra lumens, is still for the Epson. Both however are really fine projectors for the bucks. -a

Well, I guess that manufacturers are bound to bringing new features and improved performance every year if they want to convince the customers to buy the new model, right?

And FI is one of these new buzz things, be it significant improvement or not.

If the 6/7500 is only slight improvement over the 1800, why should I spend $1000 more? (that’s about the difference in price in Europe)

With the success of the previous model we know, Epson is positionning itself as the leader on (this segment of) the market, and with prices higher than competitors. As a consequence, customers may have higher expectations towards them. As you probably do

Now is maybe where starts the sad story for Epson:
A seemingly significant amount of people plan their purchase for christmas holyday when manufacturers, knowing the habits of their customers, present their new Fall Winter collection. But Epson made it too late with the 6/7500, certainly missing lots of sales there.

Nevertheless, some people (well, at least me) delayed their purchase until the availability of the Epson’s and the first reviews. I hope I’m not too far from reality when summarizing as “awesome, though some minor issues”.

Then, on the forums, some owners started reporting problems such as frozen zoom ring or iris loudness or slow hdmi handshaking or dead pixels or poor convergence or lousy FI (although praising the overall quality) and talking of returning their projector for repair.

Of course, all these problems may occur with other projectors, but it’s the long awaited (psychologically, at least 6/7500 that is currently under the limelight and passing the benchtests. And it would be detrimental to Epson that the 6/7500 gets a reputation of “rushed out of the door” product, especially when this product has an all-awards-winner profile otherwise.

And the reaction of Epson, or the apparent non-reaction should I say, is making things worse. I phoned the local Panasonic branch and got answered that they weren’t aware of any problem on this model and that a firmware update was something unheard-of. I didn’t find anything on the website neither.

So, I am maybe not the only one currently torn between the urge to fill the gap with, say, the pana-3000 now and the desire to wait for Epson to solve the small issue and get the best in breed (but when?).

A clear announcement by Epson that they are aware of the issues and what they intend to do would certainly help to be patient.

Hello Art… great site and love the reviews.

I am buying my first projector and am extremely nervous. My wife has put me in charge and after reading not sure what to do anymore. If you could help would be appreciated.

Frame Interpolation: Does it affect the LCoS like the JVC projectors? Have not heard of it mentioned before in the reviews for these projectors. I am nervous about the Epson 6500, I know the Epson 1080 UB was a top performer, but you didn’t mention much about any judder issue with it, now with the 6500 judder seems to be a significant issue. Could you perhaps let me know if I am reading into this correctly, I know the judder tends to come from the creative frame interpolation that was not part of the Epson 1080 UB.

Also, can the Epson or JVC models handle PS3 or Wii gaming very well?

I know the JVC are higher rated than the Epson, however, the room will have some ambient light when watching football, looking at the specs and your comments the JVC is not as luminous as the Epson. Is the JVC really purely for movie viewing and not well suited for some ambient light?

In the end what I am looking for is a projector that is well rounded that will be used for movie watching, PS3 gaming and football viewing. Is there such a machine that maybe is not perfect for all but handles all within reason? Is it the Epson 6500 or should I be looking higher at something light a JVC?

Quite a few questions, but the more I seem to read the more confused I get.

Thanks
Jason

*************

Hi Jason,

So far, the only projectors with creative frame interpolation are 3LCD projectors. It can be done with any technology, however. I expect over the next year or two most “top of the line” models will sport it, if for no other reason than to “not be left behind”. Certainly it’s a strong marketing point.

OK, a moment for “basics”. The term judder is being tossed around a lot these days. Traditional “judder” has been the effect of applying 3:2 pulldown to convert 24fps film, to 60fps. By duplicating alternate frames 2x and 3x respectively, you get the 60fps, but there is a slight unevenness to the image, which is judder.

I’ve never referred to 24fps’s inherent motion blur as judder, don’t know why people are confusing the issue. In a perfect world everything would be shot (be it film or digital) at, say 120fps, which should provide extremely smooth imagery, basically eliminating motion blur because the eye can’t distinguish above that speed (my assumption), whereas 24fps is very slow, by comparison.

As a result, all the conversation going on now, is about frame interpolation, and it’s issues. The 1080 UB, as well as the new 6100 don’t have creative frame interpolation, and thus no conversation about judder issues, since most are watching Blu-ray movies at 24fps, no interpolation, no “traditional” judder, just good old 24fps.

I’m not a gaming guy, and am not prepared to report on how the different projectors do in terms of gaming. I’m hoping to devise something in the not too distant future.

As to the new JVC’s they are still a step up product, and neither offer any form of frame interpolation. They are both in-house for review. I’ll be reporting on the 6500UB vs the JVC’s in the competitive sections of those reviews as they come out over the next week and change. -art

Hi Art,

Thanks for all the great work in reviewing pj’s over the years. Has helped me tremendously with my buying decisions. Also, big thanks for following up with Epson on improving their frame interpolation implementation and other issues!

Just picked up a 6500ub and what I see is bad frame stuttering with 1080p24 with any setting and the Low setting with any resolution. Normal and High seem to stutter less but produce more artifacts. In eliminating blur, they show almost like a strobe stop motion with fast moving objects. These effects are most pronounced with film material, whether blu-ray or coming from satellite at 1080i. Video seems to behave much better maybe due to higher frame rates or faster shutter speeds on the cameras.

I would like to see a Low type setting without the stuttering and a setting below this with less “digital live” effect added to film material. Ideally, frame interpolation should adapt to either film or video and behave correctly.

I was also curious if you had any follow up on the hdmi handshaking issues since a lot of folks are complaining about this. I find it takes 7-10 seconds when switching resolutions or sources.

Thanks again!

Greetings Bob,

Yes, the FI is a mess with 24fps sources. I’m having far better luck with FI off, and 4:4 engaged, let me know what you think.

I’ve addressed the slow “handshaking” to Epson. Nothing yet. It is a nuisance, when flipping back and forth between my football games when one is on a lo-def channel. I’m generally finding times of 4 to 8 seconds. It’s slower than most regardless of whether FI is engaged or not. -art

It seems that color accuracy vs brightness is a common trade-off.

Now, the TW5000 has a “light power edition” where, if I got it right, are included some extra filters to mount on the objective. These filters would allow to achieve a good color balance while having less impact on the brightness than the internal “pure color” filter. Is this assumption correct?

Greetings!

I’m not aware of the filters you are talking about, and a quick call to my primary contact, at Epson had him scratching his head. Do you have any datasheet, or documentation about these filters? Did they come with your TW5000? If I gather what you said correctly, there are versions with/without, these external filters?
The 6500UB has no screw thread around the lens casing to mount a filter. How is it being handled (getting it in front of the lens)? I’d like to look into this. -art

Hi Art,

The TW5000 Light Power Edition is a model apparently available only in Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

A (p)review on cine4home announces (in german) the projector boasts a 7000:1 native contrast (instead of 5000 for normal model, I think) 50000:1 adaptative and up to 1300 lumens while achieving good color balance.

This is made possible by an external “light power glass filter” (provided with the projector) that makes it possible to calibrate starting from the “bright” mode. I understand that this filter makes unnecessary the use of the internal “pure color” filter, which seems to significantly reduce the lumen output.

I guess this filter requires no screw simply because the ring of the filter has the very precise diameter to fit on the objective.

If such an improvement in the performance is made possible by a “mere” filter, I wonder why it is not part of the standard package. But then, it is where I need your expert comment.

p.s.: regarding the number of intermediate frames created for 24p material, I think it is the Panasonic that creates up to 3, while the Epson and the Sanyo would create only 1.

**********
Hmm, the filter system sounds interesting, I’ll touch base with them.

As to the frame interpolation, I have an Epson presentation here, that shows that when dealing with a movie coming in at 1080/60, the Epson frame interpolation strips it back to 24 fps. From there it inserts four additional “creative” frames (each different), the now 24fps, up to 120.

Now for a straight 1080/60 signal, non-movie, then, yes, it adds a single “creative” frame in between each original frame – taking it from 60 to 120.

For 24fps sources, there are choices beyond standard 24fps output.
1. using 4:4 pull-down, which simply duplicates each frame three additional times for 96fps output.
2. using frame interpolation, once again, four unique creative frames are placed in between each original.

So, that’s definitely what Epson is doing.
Sanyo, with a standard 1080/60 does the same thing as the Epson, one new creative frame in between each original. If the original content coming across on 1080/60 is 24fps (movies), then the Sanyo goes to 5:5. They do not mention using creative for that.
When you feed it a straight 24fps (Movies on Blu-ray), it does a straight 4:4.

So, basically, most of Epson’s issues, are trying to do things the Sanyo doesn’t attempt. You are right that Sanyo never creatively interpolates more than one frame between two, but more to the point, from their literature, they don’t attempt to do any creative frame interpolation with 24fps movies, whether delivered to the projector as 24fps, or as 60fps with 3:2 pull-down.

I want to clarify something about the Panasonic’s handling, before I comment on it.

In summary, between the Sanyo and the Epson, the Epson offer creative FI in addition to 4:4, with a 24fps source. For 24fps content delivered across 1080/60, (where it has the most trouble), it is trying to put in four creative frames, while the Sanyo simply takes the 3:2 pull-down, strips it back to 24fps and then creates the extra four frames, but without creative. Both projectors do the same basic thing with a standard 1080/60 source, drop in one creative frame.

Hi Art,

the light power edition seems to be available only in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. I seems to be developed together with http://www.cine4home.de which offer filters for different projectors in order to maximise lumen output and at the same time optimize the colors to the D65 video norm. That’s my understanding. The filter works fine. You can use the brightest mode of the TW5000 and don’t loose too much. But I don’t have equiment to measure the color balance.

Norbert

Hello Art!

Your insightful reviews continue to help me with my home theater experiences! My question deals with the “handshaking” issues when swapping to different channels on my DirecTv HD DVR. (I would assume that this applies whenever changing source resolutions). Does the 4-8 second delay that you mentioned earlier occur if the channels you switch between are of the same resolution?

Thanks,

Mike

***************************
Greetings Mike,

I use Cox cable out here, not Direct TV. When I switch between two HDTV channels, or between two SD-TV channels, it is much faster – from less than second up to maybe two seconds. When I switch from HDTV to SD-TV or the other way, then, yes, I get delays of typically 4 – 8 seconds. It’s a real drag for channel surfing, if you move back and forth between low and hi res.

I have not noticed a great delay when switching between a 720p and a 1080i channel. Still in the 2 seconds or less range. -art

Well after much worry about all this I decided on the BenQ w5000. Then I find out about the throw distance and in the end it needed 16 feet to fill up my 110″ screen and that isn’t happening in my current setup.

No worries though, I ended up getting an Epson 6500ub from Jason at AVS. He did the lite QC check so I got a unit with almost perfect convergence, ZERO focus instability(seriously, it’s as sharp after turning it on as four hours in, go figure) and other than the freaky, inconsistent FI it’s absolutely perfect.

This is important to know for all you people sitting on the fence. This PJ is absolutely awesome in every way FOR ME.

What awesome black levels…I’m very impressed. This projector is blowing me away everyday that I watch it. Especially shows that are dark like Paranormal State and some dark movies. My old HC1500 just couldn’t have handled them as well. I’ll never even think about getting a plasma or LCDTV again. The epson destroys them…even with ambient light it’s pretty awesome in livingroom mode.

Anyway, I’m sorry to hear about people’s problems with the 6500ub. The focus issue, convergence problems etc etc. I just don’t have any of them at all.

Heck we even watched the entire superbowl and all the commercials with FI turned on “low” and nobody noticed any artifacts whatsoever. It seems that FI has a couple applications where it works as advertised. Sports and animated shows seem to display very well. I think that FI actually works for what it was really intended for. It WAS NOT intended for 1080/24 content really and it doesn’t work so hot for it. Panny and Sanyo don’t even TRY to use FI for 24fps content. Epson tried and it didn’t work out so well. Big whoop…don’t use it. I hate the “soap opera” effect it produces on most other content anyway so I leave it off.

In the end I’m very pleased with what I ended up with. For switching from DLP to LCD I think the epson was the way to go. I don’t miss the “pop” at all and it’s plenty sharp. The brightness and colors WOW me and my family everyday. I see no motion blur.

What’s more, when they come out with a “fix” for the FI issues and focus issues…I can just have them ship me a new PJ…free.

As good as my unit is I’m in no hurry to do that though. Like I said, for sports viewing the FI works very well imho.

I too was sitting on the fence….for a long time. Finally just dove in and the water turned out to be wonderful. I’m very very happy about this PJ. Many people like to sit around and complain about what’s WRONG…but don’t forget all the things that are SO right. This PJ is awesome.

Hi Art and Mike,

Any news on a potential firmware fix for the FI issues together with 24fps?

Have you tried using a BD-player from lets say Pioneer in order to find out if th PS3 is part of the issue?

Are you as projectorcentral looking into the de-focusing issue which apparently Epson has a hardware/software fix for in a upcoming replacement model due for mid feb 2009?

Thank you for a very nice web-site

/Patrik

Hi Art and Mike,

Any news on a potential firmware fix for the FI issues together with 24fps?

Have you tried using a BD-player from lets say Pioneer in order to find out if th PS3 is part of the issue?

Are you as projectorcentral looking into the de-focusing issue which apparently Epson has a hardware/software fix for in a upcoming replacement model due for mid feb 2009?

Thank you for a very nice web-site

I read that the 4:4 Pull down works by repeating every frame 4 times resulting in 96fps which should visually give a much improved result. I can honestly say that I can’t see a big difference with this turned on or off when watching moving objects. Do you see a big difference because I guess you should?

I might have misunderstood the 4:4 pull down since its a non frame creative algorithm it simply stabilizes the picture by showing the same information with higher frequency if I’m not wrong. I have a question though regarding FI and 4:4 pull down, if you have 24fps enabled on you player and FI enabled the 4:4 pull down is shaded and On if you before that turned FI off and then 4:4 ON. Now to my question what does the proj actually do in this case since you don’t get the soap opera look as if FI is ON and 4:4 is OFF?

**********************************
Hi,
I’ve combined your three comments above, and will attempt to answer below. Actually, I do believe most of your questions have been answered in previous blogs, but I’ll try to summarize:

1. In speaking with Epson, they are apparently working with Pixelworks (who did the CFI) to improve things. That said, Epson, for the most part has tried to do things neither Panasonic nor Sanyo (the only two others with CFI) have attempted. The current setup takes 24fps, and tries to create 4 new frames between each pair (yielding 120fps). The problems are obvious.

I don’t know that we’ll actually see any changes to their handling of 24fps, we shall have to wait and see. (Sanyo doesn’t mess with CFI at all, with 24fps, and Panasonic adds just one frame with 24fps source – I think). With 24fps content delivered at 60 (HDTV), Epson strips back the 60 to the original 24 fps, then again tries to add the 4 new creative frames. Panasonic, I believe, simply runs with the 60 fps, adding a frame to get to 120fps. However, with the Panasonic, 24fps content – delivered at 60, is still using 3:2 pull-down, so that judder issue (3:2 pull-down) would still be there.

If Epson comes up with a fix they can implement, more power to them, however, I don’t see it to be a deal breaker. BTW, the Epson does very nicely with sports viewing. I used the 6500UB for my superbowl party, with CFI on, and it worked out just fine – no one noticed any issues with the CFI.

2. It’s not the PS3. I have received feedback from at least a dozen people using Pioneer, Panasonic and Sony Blu-ray players, and they report the same issues.

3. I’ve blogged extensively on the de-focus issue as well. I won’t repeat that here. Suffice to say, that according to Epson, by now almost all dealer inventory has the changed manufacturing “fix”. Further they say indicate they will replace (through their normal replacement program, I believe) any older units where the customer finds the de-focusing is a real issue.

4. CFI at best seems to provide only a subtle improvement, although that may vary from viewer to viewer.

5. I can’t quite make out what settings you are talking about re 4:4 and CFI. (more punctuation should help), but the short of it. The Epson cannot have both 4:4 and CFI working at the same time. Thus, one is always grayed out. If 4:4 is running, you should not have the “soap opera” (“live digital video”) look. If you are seeing the soap opera look, then CFI should be operating, and 4:4 off. The order you put in the settings may determine which you end up with. Best, therefore, to start with both off, and turn just one on.

6. At it’s best, CFI is only a partial solution, and in most cases, even when effective, the reduction in motion blur is hard to spot – it’s definitely not one of those “night and day” differences.

Additional comment for your consideration.

We all got by quite well, until the last 2 years, with 3:2 pull-down on everything (judder), with only a little complaint. The blu-ray/HDMI support for 24fps, created new solutions and new issues. First, 24fps is “slow” (though the same speed as in the movie theater). Thus, motion blur, logically, is more of an issue. But 24fps also means no 3:2 pull-down judder, for a smoother image in that regard. My drumstick example above, demonstrates one of the limitations of CFI.

In a perfect world what is needed is for movies to go to a filming speed of 48, 72, 96 or 120fps. However, no reason to expect we’ll see that anytime soon from the studios.

Best I can tell, there are two types of motion blur issues – one is simply smoothing out the motion of fast moving objects, and a second type, is more related to how the retina and brain react. For the second of these, it does seem to me, based of feedback, that some folks are sensitive to the slower speed and resulting blur, more than others (much like rainbow effect sensitivity). Thus, some folks who hate 24fps, claim they can’t watch it. Those folks often find that a simple 2:2 (48fps) or 4:4 (96fps), solves that issue for them.

The first type – objects blur because of the amount of movement of the objects between adjacent frames, is only partially solved by CFI, even if it works. An example – I was watching a music video last night (blu-ray, 24fps). I freeze a frame of the drummer, and that frame has one of his drum sticks in an arc covering about 4 or 6 inches of space, that the stick moved while that frame was shot. Thus, a blurred frame. The next frame, just as blurred.

CFI, theoretically would see the drumstick not as a 1/2 inch wide stick, but as a 4-6 inch translucent “stick” Putting more frames between them, won’t do a darn thing to give you a solid stick moving smoothly. (But, it will help with a tennis ball, that moves 10% of the screen between frames, but is only slightly elongated in the individual frames.

Ok, have fun sorting that out. -art

Hi Art; Mike,

In your blog you mention issues with frame interpolation with the 7500UB. And with the home cinema model so close in features to the pro, do you think it’s worth the while to spend the extra bucks on the pro model?

****************************
Hi,
Both have the same Frame interpolation, so that’s not a deciding factor. You pay more for the 7500UB than the 6500UB, but that is partially offset by the free ceiling mount and spare lamp. The 7500UB also supports an anamorphic lens, but that’s only an issue for 1 or 2% of the folks. The 7500UB also has an extra year of warranty. And you are buying the 7500UB from a local authorized dealer, so the assumption is better (or at least local) support. If they are doing the installation, it’s probably worth the difference.
The last difference is the ISF certification, but that isn’t really an issue. Both have 10 user savable settings, and a pro calibrator can use any of them. You’ll have to decide if the extra few hundred is worth it. -art

Hi, I thought I’d post a comment and inform you that your web site layout is really messed up on the Firefox browser. Seems to work ok on IE however. Anyways keep up the great work.