Man, am I torn right now. I’ve been debating whether to upgrade my 1080UB with the 6500UB. My wife and I both like the FI effect on many HD movies we watch on cable on our little 42″ 120Hz LCD. My 1080UB looks great with Blu-ray at 24Hz (of course playing at 48Hz). If I knew the 6500 could do smooth frame interpolation with 24Hz material, I’d pull the trigger right now. I’m hopeful for the “fix” coming from Epson, but given this is still essentially first-gen FI, I have my doubts. Maybe I should stick with my 1080UB (which was just calibrated and I just bought an extra lamp) and wait until next year for hopefully next-gen FI. From what I’ve read, it doesn’t sound like the 6500 is that much of an improvement over the 1080UB. The FI stands out as really the only discriminator in my mind. What do you think?
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Hi Scott,

Even with an FI fix, keep in mind that overall performance is only slightly better for the 6500UB vs. 1080 UB. So, if the FI is the primary reason for upgrading, then maybe it makes sense. Otherwise, I’d say wait another generation. I own a 1080 UB, and have viewed, side by side with 6500UB. If one forgets FI for the moment, I’d have to say that it’s definitely not worth upgrading – large cost, very small improvement. -art

PS. You’ve seen “good” FI on your 42″. Keep in mind that on a much larger screen – say 100 – 110″ the artifacts associated with CFI (especially the live digital video “soap opera” look), which may look cool on a 42″, may be well “over the top” on a 100 inch screen, where it will be far more noticeable. -a

In your blog you mention issues with frame interpolation with the 7500UB. And with the home cinema model so close in features to the pro, do you think it’s worth the while to spend the extra bucks on the pro model?

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Hi,
Both have the same Frame interpolation, so that’s not a deciding factor. You pay more for the 7500UB than the 6500UB, but that is partially offset by the free ceiling mount and spare lamp. The 7500UB also supports an anamorphic lens, but that’s only an issue for 1 or 2% of the folks. The 7500UB also has an extra year of warranty. And you are buying the 7500UB from a local authorized dealer, so the assumption is better (or at least local) support. If they are doing the installation, it’s probably worth the difference.
The last difference is the ISF certification, but that isn’t really an issue. Both have 10 user savable settings, and a pro calibrator can use any of them. You’ll have to decide if the extra few hundred is worth it. -art

Since it’s done at the animator’s discretion, it doesn’t run into the issues you mentioned.

The only way I could see it being consistently useful in projectors and tvs is if interpolation on/off signals were stored in the video data and were included in the dvd transfer process.

This of course would require an industry standard/adoption, which is unlikely.

Any news on a potential firmware fix for the FI issues together with 24fps?

Have you tried using a BD-player from lets say Pioneer in order to find out if th PS3 is part of the issue?

Are you as projectorcentral looking into the de-focusing issue which apparently Epson has a hardware/software fix for in a upcoming replacement model due for mid feb 2009?

Thank you for a very nice web-site

I read that the 4:4 Pull down works by repeating every frame 4 times resulting in 96fps which should visually give a much improved result. I can honestly say that I can’t see a big difference with this turned on or off when watching moving objects. Do you see a big difference because I guess you should?

I might have misunderstood the 4:4 pull down since its a non frame creative algorithm it simply stabilizes the picture by showing the same information with higher frequency if I’m not wrong. I have a question though regarding FI and 4:4 pull down, if you have 24fps enabled on you player and FI enabled the 4:4 pull down is shaded and On if you before that turned FI off and then 4:4 ON. Now to my question what does the proj actually do in this case since you don’t get the soap opera look as if FI is ON and 4:4 is OFF?

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Hi,
I’ve combined your three comments above, and will attempt to answer below. Actually, I do believe most of your questions have been answered in previous blogs, but I’ll try to summarize:

1. In speaking with Epson, they are apparently working with Pixelworks (who did the CFI) to improve things. That said, Epson, for the most part has tried to do things neither Panasonic nor Sanyo (the only two others with CFI) have attempted. The current setup takes 24fps, and tries to create 4 new frames between each pair (yielding 120fps). The problems are obvious.

I don’t know that we’ll actually see any changes to their handling of 24fps, we shall have to wait and see. (Sanyo doesn’t mess with CFI at all, with 24fps, and Panasonic adds just one frame with 24fps source – I think). With 24fps content delivered at 60 (HDTV), Epson strips back the 60 to the original 24 fps, then again tries to add the 4 new creative frames. Panasonic, I believe, simply runs with the 60 fps, adding a frame to get to 120fps. However, with the Panasonic, 24fps content – delivered at 60, is still using 3:2 pull-down, so that judder issue (3:2 pull-down) would still be there.

If Epson comes up with a fix they can implement, more power to them, however, I don’t see it to be a deal breaker. BTW, the Epson does very nicely with sports viewing. I used the 6500UB for my superbowl party, with CFI on, and it worked out just fine – no one noticed any issues with the CFI.

2. It’s not the PS3. I have received feedback from at least a dozen people using Pioneer, Panasonic and Sony Blu-ray players, and they report the same issues.

3. I’ve blogged extensively on the de-focus issue as well. I won’t repeat that here. Suffice to say, that according to Epson, by now almost all dealer inventory has the changed manufacturing “fix”. Further they say indicate they will replace (through their normal replacement program, I believe) any older units where the customer finds the de-focusing is a real issue.

4. CFI at best seems to provide only a subtle improvement, although that may vary from viewer to viewer.

5. I can’t quite make out what settings you are talking about re 4:4 and CFI. (more punctuation should help), but the short of it. The Epson cannot have both 4:4 and CFI working at the same time. Thus, one is always grayed out. If 4:4 is running, you should not have the “soap opera” (“live digital video”) look. If you are seeing the soap opera look, then CFI should be operating, and 4:4 off. The order you put in the settings may determine which you end up with. Best, therefore, to start with both off, and turn just one on.

6. At it’s best, CFI is only a partial solution, and in most cases, even when effective, the reduction in motion blur is hard to spot – it’s definitely not one of those “night and day” differences.

Additional comment for your consideration.

We all got by quite well, until the last 2 years, with 3:2 pull-down on everything (judder), with only a little complaint. The blu-ray/HDMI support for 24fps, created new solutions and new issues. First, 24fps is “slow” (though the same speed as in the movie theater). Thus, motion blur, logically, is more of an issue. But 24fps also means no 3:2 pull-down judder, for a smoother image in that regard. My drumstick example above, demonstrates one of the limitations of CFI.

In a perfect world what is needed is for movies to go to a filming speed of 48, 72, 96 or 120fps. However, no reason to expect we’ll see that anytime soon from the studios.

Best I can tell, there are two types of motion blur issues – one is simply smoothing out the motion of fast moving objects, and a second type, is more related to how the retina and brain react. For the second of these, it does seem to me, based of feedback, that some folks are sensitive to the slower speed and resulting blur, more than others (much like rainbow effect sensitivity). Thus, some folks who hate 24fps, claim they can’t watch it. Those folks often find that a simple 2:2 (48fps) or 4:4 (96fps), solves that issue for them.

The first type – objects blur because of the amount of movement of the objects between adjacent frames, is only partially solved by CFI, even if it works. An example – I was watching a music video last night (blu-ray, 24fps). I freeze a frame of the drummer, and that frame has one of his drum sticks in an arc covering about 4 or 6 inches of space, that the stick moved while that frame was shot. Thus, a blurred frame. The next frame, just as blurred.

CFI, theoretically would see the drumstick not as a 1/2 inch wide stick, but as a 4-6 inch translucent “stick” Putting more frames between them, won’t do a darn thing to give you a solid stick moving smoothly. (But, it will help with a tennis ball, that moves 10% of the screen between frames, but is only slightly elongated in the individual frames.

Ok, have fun sorting that out. -art

I read that the 4:4 Pull down works by repeating every frame 4 times resulting in 96fps which should visually give a much improved result. I can honestly say that I can’t see a big difference with this turned on or off when watching moving objects. Do you see a big difference because I guess you should?

/Patrik

Any news on a potential firmware fix for the FI issues together with 24fps?

Have you tried using a BD-player from lets say Pioneer in order to find out if th PS3 is part of the issue?

Are you as projectorcentral looking into the de-focusing issue which apparently Epson has a hardware/software fix for in a upcoming replacement model due for mid feb 2009?

Thank you for a very nice web-site

/Patrik

When you say that when they come out with a fix you can have them ship a new PJ for free, do you refer to a general Epson policy or a special agreement with the dealer you got it from?

I mean, is this possibility available for every 6500 owner or just for some happy few?

No worries though, I ended up getting an Epson 6500ub from Jason at AVS. He did the lite QC check so I got a unit with almost perfect convergence, ZERO focus instability(seriously, it’s as sharp after turning it on as four hours in, go figure) and other than the freaky, inconsistent FI it’s absolutely perfect.

This is important to know for all you people sitting on the fence. This PJ is absolutely awesome in every way FOR ME.

What awesome black levels…I’m very impressed. This projector is blowing me away everyday that I watch it. Especially shows that are dark like Paranormal State and some dark movies. My old HC1500 just couldn’t have handled them as well. I’ll never even think about getting a plasma or LCDTV again. The epson destroys them…even with ambient light it’s pretty awesome in livingroom mode.

Anyway, I’m sorry to hear about people’s problems with the 6500ub. The focus issue, convergence problems etc etc. I just don’t have any of them at all.

Heck we even watched the entire superbowl and all the commercials with FI turned on “low” and nobody noticed any artifacts whatsoever. It seems that FI has a couple applications where it works as advertised. Sports and animated shows seem to display very well. I think that FI actually works for what it was really intended for. It WAS NOT intended for 1080/24 content really and it doesn’t work so hot for it. Panny and Sanyo don’t even TRY to use FI for 24fps content. Epson tried and it didn’t work out so well. Big whoop…don’t use it. I hate the “soap opera” effect it produces on most other content anyway so I leave it off.

In the end I’m very pleased with what I ended up with. For switching from DLP to LCD I think the epson was the way to go. I don’t miss the “pop” at all and it’s plenty sharp. The brightness and colors WOW me and my family everyday. I see no motion blur.

What’s more, when they come out with a “fix” for the FI issues and focus issues…I can just have them ship me a new PJ…free.

As good as my unit is I’m in no hurry to do that though. Like I said, for sports viewing the FI works very well imho.

I too was sitting on the fence….for a long time. Finally just dove in and the water turned out to be wonderful. I’m very very happy about this PJ. Many people like to sit around and complain about what’s WRONG…but don’t forget all the things that are SO right. This PJ is awesome.