Home Cinema 8500UB projector – Red lines issue
January 28th, 2010 Art Feierman
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Greetings all,
OK, to summarize, it’s been reported on avsforum, and probably others, that a small number of Epson 8500ub (and 9500ub?) projectors are sporting some vertical red lines and possibly other red artifacts.
I had a discussion yesterday with Epson product management. Of course, so far, it’s only been a short time, since the first reports of this issue, but Epson assures me (so, I guess, that I can assure you), that Epson is:
1. Aware of the issue
2. Currently trying to nail down the cause, in order to determine the scope of the problem and to rectify it.
3. Coming up with a solution as soon as possible.
Epson, from our conversation, believes this is a problem affecting a very small percentage of owners. From their perspective – so far – and I imagine it could change if they get a lot more reports, it is affecting very few. As Epson indicated, and industry stats would tend to support, Epson by now has likely shipped at least a couple thousand 8500UB’s in the US, as well as perhaps an equal or greater number of the equivalent overseas models.
I do note that only 12 people (out of 31) in the AVSforum survey report a problem, which sounds like a lot, but based on previous surveys done for other problems, including Epson’s defocusing issue, and possibly the CFI, as well as older ones done relating to the BenQ PE7700 lamp issue, Panasonic vertical banding (several Panasonic models) etc., the forums are truly bad places to try to figure out accurately how many people are affected.
I say that, because it’s the nature of forums that people who buy a projector – whether familiar with forums going in, are often likely to search them out, when they have a problem. This tends to make the numbers higher. After all, as of a minute ago, if you google 8500UB, red, line; then AVSforum’s survey page is the top search result.
Also, interesting, I’m talking with one user who not only suffered the red line problem (that’s you Bruce), but has with the replacement unit as well.
That’s strange, especially if Epson is right, and that this problem is affecting a small group (single digit) of owners. That would tend to, though not necessarily, indicate that while a problem may lie in the Epson firmware, it’s only triggered when certain other conditions are met. That type of problem can take longer to solve.
Bruce tells me that the problem is few and far between – he uses the projector 20-30 hours a week and it happens, I believe, about once a week. That makes it hard to nail down what modes prevent the problem from happening, if any.
I’d like to engage a couple of other folks with the problem, to go over cables, switchers (including AV receivers), sources, etc., to see if we can find common threads and help Epson nail this problem down.
So drop me an email at reviewer@projectorreviews.com if you have a red line problem and still have the projector. I’ll pass on everything of use, to Epson.
That brings me to the “commercial”.
Epson asked me to assure everyone, that Epson, as always, is fully focused on customer satisfaction. That they will figure out the problem shortly, that they will come up with a fix, where needed, and everyone will “live happily ever after” (my words), with their Epson projectors.
I recall that with the de-focus problem of last year, it took several weeks from first reports until a manufacturing fix was found. The same was true with the issues with their first CFI firmware.
Epson does get my endorsement. As an online dealer we did sell something in the order of 10,000 Epson projectors over a decade, over the course of the decade, they were our largest line (but we sold almost all the majors – Sanyo, Panasonic, BenQ, Optoma, Sony, Toshiba, Mitsubishi…) My experience with them, from the dealer standpoint, and how they took care of customers with issues, was always exceptional. It’s no wonder they have a closet full of awards for Epson customer support.
So, all I can tell you, is, so far, that if Epson is right, the problem affects a very small group. In that case, there’s little to fear in buying a shiny new 8500UB. And, should you be one of the unfortunate to encounter the problem, Epson will take care of you. Among other things, remember, they have their overnight replacement program, which is about as close to “no questions asked”, as you will find. More important, though, is that Epson really does take any such issues extremely seriously. While other companies often take a while to debate whether there is a problem, Epson seems to sort of assume, upon hearing there is one, that it’s real, and their challenge becomes – how quickly can we make this go away, and have all our owners happy.
OK, yeah, I like Epson, we all know that. I own a 1080UB in my Epson Ensemble HD, I also have an Epson printer (two actually, the other is an ancient MX80 (now approaching 30 years old – (great paperweight). I worked for them ‘82 – ‘86, (no, there weren’t Epson projectors back then, only Epson dot matrix printers, and Epson IBM PC clones). But, I can tell you, Epson had the same almost “anal-retentive” focus on building quality product, and providing excellent support, then, as they have today. They are in a rut. It just so happens that for end users, it’s a good rut.
OK, one more time. I’m looking t hear from 2-3-4 of you who have experienced the problem. Especially anyone who is having it frequently (every couple hours), which helps in determining all circumstances in effect when the problem occurs.
Meantime Epson will keep me apprised once the cause is determined, once a fix is readies, and how to take advantage. If like the last couple of issues to hit Epson, response should be pretty fast, with a solution found, and hopefully implemented in the next few weeks.
It’s not likely a cable quality/length issue, as Bruce has tried with short and long cables, but, more results are needed.
Thanks! Let’s get this problem nailed, and corrected so we can get back to the business of sorting out projector image quality.
BTW, the Epson 9500UB I have here on loan, is now pushing close to 200 hours and it does not exhibit any red lines. -art
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January 31st, 2010 at 7:18 pm
I wish that I could help, but I can honestly- and happily- say that I have well over 200 hours on my 8500UB with no instances of the “wavy red line” phenomena. If nothing else, at least I can verify that the problem is NOT universal.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:53 am
Hey Art,
I am glad you are looking into this issue, I had read about the red line problem before purchasing the 8500UB but went ahead and bought it, trusting Epson’s reputation and customer support.
My bulb has less than 10 hours and I haven’t seen the issue yet.
I do have a question though, the manual states to turn off the projector’s main power switch on the back after powering off/letting the bulb cool. Is this necessary?
I doubt many setups make that button easy to turn off every time you use the projector, and wondered what your practices are.
Would leaving it on all the time have any adverse affects?
February 3rd, 2010 at 6:01 pm
Art,
I ran into the red haloing issue with my 9500 UB. I was able to capture it on video and upload to YouTube. It occured watching Human Target tonight right after I turned the projector on. You can see in the video that the gray stones shimmer red and around 49 seconds in, the man’s face ghosts red. Here is the link and some info about my setup:
68 hours on the lamp
Motorola 6412 cable box sending 720p over HDMI through OPPO HDMI switch to the 9500
The program is Human Target on FOX
Color Mode: Cinema Night
Brightness: 8
Color Saturation: 6
Skin Tone: 3
Frame Interpolation: Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKOt3fTKAUg
February 5th, 2010 at 5:38 am
Any update yet from epson about this problem yet?
February 5th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Wow…that’s quite a summary Art!
February 5th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
I just got the red wavy line problem after 16 hours on my projector.
In one scene the clouds had red lines around them that followed the curves of the clouds.
I turned it off then back on and was presented with a message that the “epson cinema filter” had a problem and to contact them. I called the PrivateLine support number by my PIN wasn’t recognized and talked to the regular support which had me power cycle again, and the problem is gone… for now.
February 5th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
I have had the Epson 8500 UB since early December using it for daily TV and occasional bluray use with no problems at all. This is my second projector and using the basic tweaks provided by some of the reviews of the 8500 UB I had a picture with deep blacks that was better than my old Sanyo that was professionally tweaked! and I mounted the unit and tweaked in in one hour!
For the sub $2500 market the Epson to me is the best deal as they have a nice $200 rebate and more importantly if you factor how long the bulb last over other close contendors like the Panny, after about one to two bulbs the Epson is far less expensive of a PJ. The blacks are very nice and I have been very happy with our 8500 UB.
February 6th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Sadly, no, I had expected to chat with them Thurs, but it never happened. At this point, that’s like last year. – I’m still feeding them info from about 8-9 people with the red line problem, that have contacted me, and they are working on it. At this point, most likely the next “word” hopefully soon, from Epson will be: “We have a fix”.
I just sent emails to my favorite two product manager types over there, to see if they have anything to tell me. -art
February 6th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Thanks Harris, and congratulations, you are the first with a 9500UB to report the problem. Up until now, they were all 8500UB’s.
-art
February 6th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Hi Jon,
That’s a silly request (to turn off the master power, in most cases. Certainly no one ceiling or mounting on a high rear shelf would do so, since they wouldn’t be able to power up with their remotes. On the other hand, Epson was probably trying to say – “hey” if it’s convenient, you might want to completely power off the unit. It will save you a watt or two at idle, and save your projector if you take a lightening strike without the proper power filtering… -art in other words, probably best intentions, misleading english.
February 6th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Hi SaxCatz,
Ahh, you are not alone. I receive far more emails, than comments through my blog (a situation I’m trying to change. I’ve heard from about 20 others with, say 40 to 200+ hours, also with no red line (at least so far. My money is that Epson will have the fix by end of month, regardless. I sure hope they don’t disappoint me, and drag it out longer. -a
February 7th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Art:
I have had about 6 cases of the red wavy lines in about 300 hours. It’s a shame because the projector has great potential but this is an unacceptable fault. I hope Epson makes this right.
February 11th, 2010 at 3:29 am
Nick, they say they’ve got it figured out. As of yesterday, they didn’t seem quite ready to roll out the support, but, my guess is that they will be there, before the weekend, so givem a call. -art. btw 323 hours on the 9500UB – no red lines.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
Art, at about 100 hours I got the wavy red problem. Looks like posterization. Drove me nuts, screwed with so many settings to try to mitigate. Until I learned at AVS to cycle the power.
I’ll be glad to exchange when I know they’ve fixed that problem in addition to the vertical lines problem, especially since my convergence is off by a couple pixels.
February 12th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
David,
A couple of pixels – wow, you really got a choice one. I had 3 different 8500UB or 9500UB’s over here two nights ago, for a calibration party. Besides the fact that none have exhibited red lines, (or vertical banding), none of them seemed to have misconvergence on any plane any color, even as great as a full pixel. The 9500UB I have here was probably the worst with green vertical off by just about 1 pixel and everything else really 1/2 pixel or less.
I’d say its time to call Epson (Tuesday – they are probably closed for the long weekend). Also from the red line standpoint, as I’ve mentioned it sounded like the final procedure does not include sending your unit it, that the red lines can be handled at home… -a
February 21st, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Art – I got the “ghosts redline” problem a couple of times with my 8500UB that I own since December. I’ve just seen it a couple of times with the unit and that too with standard DVDs. I called up Epson and they haven’t exactly been helpful, asking me to check cables, Blu Ray player, receiver etc. which I know is not the issue. I’m waiting for it to appear again so that I can capture it on camera..so that it may help resolve the problem.
Love your blog/reviews!
VJ
February 21st, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Oh..Forgot to add..Shutting down and powering up the projector solved the problem when I got the issue.
February 27th, 2010 at 11:18 am
My 8500UB is 2 months old with 35 hours. I noticed the redish/magenta coloring on fleshtones in motion at first then on other objects. Then, the projector began to display very deep green coloring in the picture on initial boot which would fade to “normal” in about a minute. A power recycle does take care of the red/magenta shadowing or artifacts but the green screen is still with me. Epson is sending a brand new replacement next week.
March 1st, 2010 at 2:59 am
Hi Art and everyone else! I am in the market for a projector. I would really REALLY prefer a 3D one however the 8500ub has that awesome contrast of 200000:1. Ok so here’s the deal.. Is there a 3D projector that looks beautiful, to where I could do my 3D movie and gaming thing, and also be able to watch a bluray movie with the family and it be crisp? If your answer is no than I guess I will just aim on getting the Epson. Any thoughts Art or anyone else?
March 3rd, 2010 at 5:46 pm
I’m having the same issue with mine…also mostly noticeable in fleshtones in motion, and recycling the power off and on usually fixes it. I haven’t yet contacted Epson about it, but I plan to soon. Kevin Mac, please post again and let us know if the new unit has the wavy red lines issue too. I’m not sure if the issue about the green coloring when first powered up is abnormal though. Mine does that too, but I figured it’s just warming up.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
The new unit is here and I’ve noticed no problems so far. The first unit didn’t actually start acting up until it had about 30 hours on it. So though it is fine now, the jury is still out. I’m hoping it’s been resolved …. we’ll see.
March 10th, 2010 at 12:42 am
Hi Kevin Mac,
Yeah, tis the nature of this type of problem, Since it can take a long time to manifest, many won’t truly believe its fixed until people have thousands of hours on theirs.
I’ll give Epson the benefit of the doubt, that is, that they’ve nailed it, and we’re not talking Toyota and ECM acceleration here.
But if it does crop up again in some fixed units, then I’ll take my lumps. But should that happen, I’ll be especially all over Epson’s case if another problem crops up down the road. So far they’ve been good to their word. If this pans out, I figure that’s three issues, over several units in two years. That really is too many issues, but they’ve handled each extremely quickly and effectively.
Oh well, other things to do. Next… -art
March 12th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Art:
I chose this unit over the Sony to replace my old Sony 720p unit (it still works, I just wanted an upgrade). I am very impressed with the 8500 and plan to keep it for awhile (until I’m compelled beyond resistance to buy a 3D unit — whenever that is). The picture is outstanding and the people at Epson were very swift to send a replacement (without me even asking). What I’m not sure about is that the unit I’ve got is a “problem solved” unit. The rep with whom I spoke was aware of some “red” problems but when asked if this was a widespread issue (I had not read this thread at that time) he said he did not think so.
Since he didn’t actually say “yes, we’ve had this issue in a few and we’ve hunted it down and killed it,” I think there is a very good chance they grabbed a brand new unit out of the crate and sent it to me — which is fine. I’m not too worried about it, if they’re as responsive to future issues as they were this one, they’ll get it done but it’s nice to have someone “monitoring” their progress.
March 13th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Hi Jeffrey M.
Looks like you’ll have to wait, to be sure about 3D. There are a lot of possibilities, but for the most part, a 3D projector today, that will do what you want, is most unlikely. I’m about to have a discussion with the nVidia folks who are leading the charge on the PC side. However, on other fronts – all the DLP’s out there right now that are claiming 3D, are, to my knowledge, 720p projectors. Supposedly TI will have the processing needed for 3D at 1080p, this summer.
So, for the most part, except for some proprietary 3D out there, there’s still no mass market of content.
My guess is that no projector currently shipping will be able to do Avatar and Alice, and Dragon, in 3D. I could be wrong. It may well be that going the computer route, not stand alone DVD player, might get the job done, but I’m not betting on it. In other words, if you have a projector, and a computer with an nVidia Quadra level graphics card, you may well be able to do 3D movies down the road. Just don’t bet the farm on it.
Most likely we’ll see a bunch of 3D ready projectors this fall. Keep an eye out for two things – HDMI 1.4 which is where the HDMI folks are putting all their 3D standards. Looks like there may be reasons why 1.3 has limitations, at least compared to 1.4.
And Blu-ray has their standards out too. I’m just not sure if they require HDMI 1.4. I will find out.
And of course, since all the projectors and blu-ray players out there are hdmi 1.3, which ones, if any, (especially the PS3) will be firmware upgradable – both for 3D abilities themselves, and possibly upgrade via firmware from 1.3 to 1.4.
Sure would be great if the existing PS3 turns out to be fully upgradeable. We shall see. hope that helps.
PS. lumens, once we start getting 3D projectors and compatible content, another big issues becomes brightness. figure with 3D, bye bye to 50% or more of your lumens? That would make today’s brightest under $10K home theater projectors become rather average to below average brightness by 2D standards. I have know idea, yet, as to how many lumens will be needed to fill my 128″ screen for 3D with glasses!
March 20th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
I have been having the same problem since I got my projector. I’m under 100 hours, and this only happens about once a week. I though something looked funny on flesh tones in motion, but I couldn’t really figure out what it was or how to describe it. As others have mentioned, cycling the power solved the issue every time.
I had a breakthrough when watching a cartoon. Wife and kid didn’t notice anything, but it was driving me crazy. This was the best example of the issue that I have seen with my projector, so I decided to take some pictures before and after…
Before reboot…
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2766/4448094767_e4d992b42a_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4448868950_f75841f817_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2678/4448097073_e3e3ce474d_b.jpg
After reboot…
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2680/4448874446_55a8b4c3ab_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4448876034_6b0023b4d9_b.jpg
April 7th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
I just purchased a 9500 and on the third or forth day, I was watching a movie and had red wavy lines on flesh toned skin show up.
I tried changing many of the setup options to no avail.
I am now researching the issue and have not contacted Epson yet. I guess if the issue shows up again, I will see if I can isolate it to a piece of hardware and if I believe it is the projector, contact Epson about the issue.
April 24th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
I had the same 3d looking picture (without wearing the red and green glasses), a couple of times .It usually happens when I change sources. Solved the problem by turning off the power and then restarting.Other than this slight irritation the pic is beautiful. Just watched Avatar and friends said it was better then the movie theater. Took two weeks of tweaking to get the pic spot on but now am in video Nivarna
May 5th, 2010 at 3:05 am
I just bought this projector and have only 13 hours on it. I too am having the issue where the screen is heavy green on boot, then settles into proper coloring. Is this a sign of a bigger issue that I should contact Epson about? Also, my mislaw is not a complete rectangle. I can get the bottom or top me the display to be completely straight but then the opposite side is angled. Is there a known fix for this?
May 5th, 2010 at 3:25 am
Mislaw = screen. Not sure how I screwed us that one.
May 23rd, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Have these issues with the 8500 been fixed yet?
May 23rd, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Nevermind. I just now saw the other blog indicating it was fixed.
May 23rd, 2010 at 6:11 pm
Contact Epson – sorry, I overlooked your comment. Epson’s just waiting… and ready. -art
May 30th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
I just bought a new Epson 8500 this past week from Visual Apex and on my second day of viewing, I am seeing the red lines and halos.
From what I have been reading, the correct thing to do is contact Epson vs. calling Visual Apex – right?
Hopefully a quick replacement will take care of this issue. My initial impression of the picture (outside of the red lines issue) is otherwise quite positive. I am upgrading from a Panny AE-900 and find the 8500 to be a huge upgrade.
May 31st, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Hi George,
Hmm, yours is the first report I’ve gotten of the problem occurring since a week or two after they announced the fix. I would have thought that Epson had caught all the old units that were out in the field, especially with a major reseller like Visual Apex. Still, yes, best bet, call Epson. If you get someone unresponsive (“level 1″ support) ask for level 2 or a manager… Epson has replaced a whole lot of these, and have all the procedures in place, but it seems even so, there’s always one person left working the phone lines, who’s “last to know”… -art
PS. Please do let me know how it all turns out. -a
June 17th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
I understand this thread is related to the Epson model however I own a Sanyo Z700 with only 20 hours on the unit and it is displaying the same vertical red lines as described in this forum. Unfortunately after power down cycles it has not improved. I am returning it to Sanyo for inspection and will let you know what they, as a competitor have to say.
July 7th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
Just got my 8500 today and noticed the wavy red lines right when I turned it on. Have power cycled to no avail. Contacting the company I bought it from to see how long it had been sitting in their stock room. WIll most likelyi be contacting Epson tomorrow to see what they say.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Hi Kent, Of course we’ve been discussing by email. Please comment back to this blog, with status etc. after you call Epson… And don’t forget, should you run into someone @ Epson support who doesn’t seem to be up to speed about the whole issue, ask for a supervisor, or level 2 support. Get someone who’s “on top of things” as most should be by now. -a