Comments on: Home Cinema 8500UB projector – Red lines issue http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/ Thoughts on home theater projectors being reviewed, related products, and tips for users Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:52:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Art Feierman http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-98103 Art Feierman Tue, 08 Mar 2011 01:54:49 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-98103 Hi Matt, Sorry to here, that, I guess you are now one of the lucky ones... most of the folks who Epson have replaced units for, are saying no problem, but you're saying your new red line problem didn't show up until 5-6 months after replacement? Could you estimate for us, how many hours you've put on it? Well, no doubt Epson will be happy to shoot you out another one... Interesting correlation... In the last 2 years, I'd say the number of projectors with issues (in review units I've seen (either defective - or poor firmware) has gone way up. We've seen multiple brands have problems with CFI, with sloppy dynamic irises and just units that aren't working right (ok, I do get a number of samples...) As to 10%... no idea, but the dealers and Epson swear it's way less. Epson has shipped, in the last 2.5 years roughly since the 6xxx series hit, maybe 25,000 - maybe 50,000 projectors in the series... It's like the lamp complaints that show up, for Epson, and sometimes over the years for Panasonic, and Optoma (the three big movers of HT projectors... When I have a problem (tires getting really noisy on my '04 G35 Infiniti) I go to the web, and I find answers on forums. Most of us do. If my lamp blew up in a projector at half of its rated life, I'd be certain to search lamp failure XYZ brand model 100 projector (or something like that. IN fact plug in almost any brand name, followed by lamp failure, and you'll probably find that at least 2 of the first three links are forums. So, who knows, but I've got about 100,000 different people on my site - each month - who's only reason for visiting is home theater projectors.. I ask everyone I answer (regarding buying a projector) to provide me their thoughts a few weeks after they are up and running. I get dozens of emails a week from those folks, but - "the lamp, or redline, or whatever the issue, and the projector, I only see huge numbers of people contacting me, when there are huge numbers of failures. (I've gotten less lamp failure reports on all brands combined in the last two years, than in a month when BenQ's PE7700 had a lamp problem. Now BenQ probably only sold 200 - 300 units a month in the US, if that, compared to 110,000 home theater projectors sold in the US in 2010. Now there was a failure rate of 90% percent by less than 50% of hours. I probably heard from 300 people. For the "major" Panasonic and Epson issues, maybe 35 in two years. I've had long discussions with several of them, regarding things like lamp failure curves, etc. I've been getting really defensive - regarding wild numbers I see on the forums about failure issues... I find myself coming to the aid of manufacturers more and more. And as a dealer online for 10 years and probably more than 20,000 projectors, I've seen the folks on the forums "mildly exaggerate" many issues to the tune of several magnitudes. I mean people do like to rant - when they are annoyed. (That certainly describes me!). -a Hi Matt,
Sorry to here, that, I guess you are now one of the lucky ones… most of the folks who Epson have replaced units for, are saying no problem, but you’re saying your new red line problem didn’t show up until 5-6 months after replacement? Could you estimate for us, how many hours you’ve put on it? Well, no doubt Epson will be happy to shoot you out another one… Interesting correlation… In the last 2 years, I’d say the number of projectors with issues (in review units I’ve seen (either defective – or poor firmware) has gone way up. We’ve seen multiple brands have problems with CFI, with sloppy dynamic irises and just units that aren’t working right (ok, I do get a number of samples…)

As to 10%… no idea, but the dealers and Epson swear it’s way less. Epson has shipped, in the last 2.5 years roughly since the 6xxx series hit, maybe 25,000 – maybe 50,000 projectors in the series… It’s like the lamp complaints that show up, for Epson, and sometimes over the years for Panasonic, and Optoma (the three big movers of HT projectors…

When I have a problem (tires getting really noisy on my ’04 G35 Infiniti) I go to the web, and I find answers on forums. Most of us do. If my lamp blew up in a projector at half of its rated life, I’d be certain to search lamp failure XYZ brand model 100 projector (or something like that. IN fact plug in almost any brand name, followed by lamp failure, and you’ll probably find that at least 2 of the first three links are forums.

So, who knows, but I’ve got about 100,000 different people on my site – each month – who’s only reason for visiting is home theater projectors.. I ask everyone I answer (regarding buying a projector) to provide me their thoughts a few weeks after they are up and running. I get dozens of emails a week from those folks, but – “the lamp, or redline, or whatever the issue, and the projector, I only see huge numbers of people contacting me, when there are huge numbers of failures. (I’ve gotten less lamp failure reports on all brands combined in the last two years, than in a month when BenQ’s PE7700 had a lamp problem. Now BenQ probably only sold 200 – 300 units a month in the US, if that, compared to 110,000 home theater projectors sold in the US in 2010. Now there was a failure rate of 90% percent by less than 50% of hours. I probably heard from 300 people. For the “major” Panasonic and Epson issues, maybe 35 in two years. I’ve had long discussions with several of them, regarding things like lamp failure curves, etc.

I’ve been getting really defensive – regarding wild numbers I see on the forums about failure issues… I find myself coming to the aid of manufacturers more and more. And as a dealer online for 10 years and probably more than 20,000 projectors, I’ve seen the folks on the forums “mildly exaggerate” many issues to the tune of several magnitudes. I mean people do like to rant – when they are annoyed. (That certainly describes me!). -a

]]> By: Matt http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-96954 Matt Fri, 04 Mar 2011 02:05:26 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-96954 I bought a 6500ub about 1.5 years ago and last October I encountered the red line across the bottom. Epson had excellent customer service and I got a replacement right away. My replacement just started same thing tonight, I think 10% may be a low estimate. I bought a 6500ub about 1.5 years ago and last October I encountered the red line across the bottom. Epson had excellent customer service and I got a replacement right away. My replacement just started same thing tonight, I think 10% may be a low estimate.

]]> By: Art Feierman http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-91789 Art Feierman Wed, 16 Feb 2011 03:05:57 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-91789 Hi Brian, you're just a little behind the curve, as you probably figured out. The red line problem seems to have been dealt with not long after you bought yours, via firmware. But, the problem did not affect all of the UBs (8500UB and 9500UB). So, now you should have a projector with current firmware, and if reports hold true, be "good to go." The big picture looks like this. 1. You are dealing with the company that has the best rep out there for post sales support, and you've seen why already. Rarely, (but sometimes) does another company jump through hoops for users. (I can only speak for Epson in the US, as overseas policies are different.) 2. Blubs. lamp life is scary, always has been, first the "life" of a lamp, in hours, is generally meant to be how long before the lamp has lost 50% brightness, not how long to failure. Perhaps more importantly, it's not like if you have a lamp rated 2000 hours, that 90% of the lamps are going to fail, between 1900 and 2100 hours. I've never been able to nail down numbers, but my guess is that one can expect 10% of lamps not even to make it to half the rated life. and probably an equal number might last more than 50% longer than rating. In other words there are always a significant number of lamps failing very early on. Luck of the draw mostly, That's why most manufacturers provide at least 500 hours, and more and more, 1000 hour warranties, they know there will be a certain number of very early failures, and they need to cover those folks. 3. Red lines - now that's a design flaw. One of the problems with the mad rush to bring out "newer, better, less expensive" year after year, is that's really rushing product out the door. A 12 month product cycle for a home theater projector is tough. Most business and education projectors last at least two years. Epson's has three problems in 3 years, not a great record, but then, their products tend to push the limits a bit more in some cases. They had a heat related lens defocusing issue (lens would go slightly out of focus, after about 30 minutes of warm up), on the 6xxx series, which was the first models to use the current 8xxx and 9xxx cabinet. Then they had issues with their CFI, and now, red line. (Well lots of manufacturers have had issues with CFI (fast motion), and others with rough dynamic iris action.) 4. Finally - how many people are suffering red lines? Well, today, almost no one, though I imagine it continues to show up on some of those original machines, like it did yours. At the time I put the problem (red lines) at well under 10% for sure, based on talking to dealers, occasionally checking on the forum threads. When I say well under - I mean it could be 1% or 8% but probably in the middle or lower. Bonus feature. If you check the forums you will also see discussions and a whole thread about the Epson lamp life, with early failures like yours. What's fascinating is that I figure a good percentage of the folks that have a problem with a projector (at least one bought online, or at least not from a "local installing dealer", are probably going to research it online. That means they will find the forums on their first search, such as: Epson lamp failure (AVS ranks #2 on google) or Epson 8500UB lamp - AVS comes up first. So, I would expect a good percentage of people with failures to end up there. So, they have a page about lamp failures asking people to report. OK, they did it poorly, because there's no way to tell how big the sample group is, since if you have one, and haven't blown a lamp, you can't respond unless you have 3000 hours on it. There needs to be a "I have one, on my first lamp" button as well. But the important point is this: there are still only 80 reports. On the largest forum, covering three generations (ok newest generation is only 4 months old). Here's the thing: Epson has probably sold over 10,000 of the combined units, maybe 20,000 or more. I think, though, that the 10,000 number is a reasonable, and probably conservative one, so we'll go with that. 80 failures out of 10,000, with the projectors having an average life of 16 months in the field, works out to 0.8% failure rate (by their chart) of 2500 hours or less, and roughly 54 failures at 1000 hours or less for 0.54%. Considering that a significant number of lamps has always failed early going back to the mid-90's when I started selling projectors, I think it safe to say there's no real problem here at all. Even if only 10% of people with lamp failures do a search, find the chart, and add their failure, that would be about 8% of the lamps not making it to 50% of claimed life. Best I can tell, 92% making it to 50% of claimed life, is probably pretty good by industry standards. enough - rest easy, enjoy, watch a comedy... -art Hi Brian,
you’re just a little behind the curve, as you probably figured out. The red line problem seems to have been dealt with not long after you bought yours, via firmware. But, the problem did not affect all of the UBs (8500UB and 9500UB). So, now you should have a projector with current firmware, and if reports hold true, be “good to go.”
The big picture looks like this.
1. You are dealing with the company that has the best rep out there for post sales support, and you’ve seen why already. Rarely, (but sometimes) does another company jump through hoops for users. (I can only speak for Epson in the US, as overseas policies are different.)
2. Blubs. lamp life is scary, always has been, first the “life” of a lamp, in hours, is generally meant to be how long before the lamp has lost 50% brightness, not how long to failure. Perhaps more importantly, it’s not like if you have a lamp rated 2000 hours, that 90% of the lamps are going to fail, between 1900 and 2100 hours. I’ve never been able to nail down numbers, but my guess is that one can expect 10% of lamps not even to make it to half the rated life. and probably an equal number might last more than 50% longer than rating.
In other words there are always a significant number of lamps failing very early on. Luck of the draw mostly, That’s why most manufacturers provide at least 500 hours, and more and more, 1000 hour warranties, they know there will be a certain number of very early failures, and they need to cover those folks.
3. Red lines – now that’s a design flaw. One of the problems with the mad rush to bring out “newer, better, less expensive” year after year, is that’s really rushing product out the door. A 12 month product cycle for a home theater projector is tough. Most business and education projectors last at least two years. Epson’s has three problems in 3 years, not a great record, but then, their products tend to push the limits a bit more in some cases.
They had a heat related lens defocusing issue (lens would go slightly out of focus, after about 30 minutes of warm up), on the 6xxx series, which was the first models to use the current 8xxx and 9xxx cabinet. Then they had issues with their CFI, and now, red line. (Well lots of manufacturers have had issues with CFI (fast motion), and others with rough dynamic iris action.)

4. Finally – how many people are suffering red lines? Well, today, almost no one, though I imagine it continues to show up on some of those original machines, like it did yours. At the time I put the problem (red lines) at well under 10% for sure, based on talking to dealers, occasionally checking on the forum threads. When I say well under – I mean it could be 1% or 8% but probably in the middle or lower.

Bonus feature. If you check the forums you will also see discussions and a whole thread about the Epson lamp life, with early failures like yours.
What’s fascinating is that I figure a good percentage of the folks that have a problem with a projector (at least one bought online, or at least not from a “local installing dealer”, are probably going to research it online. That means they will find the forums on their first search, such as:
Epson lamp failure (AVS ranks #2 on google) or Epson 8500UB lamp – AVS comes up first.

So, I would expect a good percentage of people with failures to end up there. So, they have a page about lamp failures asking people to report. OK, they did it poorly, because there’s no way to tell how big the sample group is, since if you have one, and haven’t blown a lamp, you can’t respond unless you have 3000 hours on it. There needs to be a “I have one, on my first lamp” button as well.
But the important point is this: there are still only 80 reports. On the largest forum, covering three generations (ok newest generation is only 4 months old).

Here’s the thing: Epson has probably sold over 10,000 of the combined units, maybe 20,000 or more. I think, though, that the 10,000 number is a reasonable, and probably conservative one, so we’ll go with that. 80 failures out of 10,000, with the projectors having an average life of 16 months in the field, works out to 0.8% failure rate (by their chart) of 2500 hours or less, and roughly 54 failures at 1000 hours or less for 0.54%.

Considering that a significant number of lamps has always failed early going back to the mid-90′s when I started selling projectors, I think it safe to say there’s no real problem here at all. Even if only 10% of people with lamp failures do a search, find the chart, and add their failure, that would be about 8% of the lamps not making it to 50% of claimed life. Best I can tell, 92% making it to 50% of claimed life, is probably pretty good by industry standards.
enough – rest easy, enjoy, watch a comedy… -art

]]> By: Brian http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-91414 Brian Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:15:36 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-91414 Currently dealing with a horizontal red line issue on a 9500UB purchased in May of 2010. The projector had 979 hours on it when the first bulb went bad, however the red line issue never existed with the first bulb that came pre-installed in the projector. Upon changint to the second bulb, a very distinguishable horizontal reddish pink line was immediately visible across my entire 100" screen . This line covers approximately the bottom 3 inches of projection. Epson replaced the first and second bulbs under warranty which shows excellent customer service. However, I replaced the second bulb with the new ones just received from Epson and the red line is still very visible, not just barely, but very visible. It is visible 100% of the time not just occasionally. I talked to the folks at Epson today, and I was made aware by the individual I talked with that this was a known issue with the video processor and that they would of course take care of it under warranty by replacing the projector. This all made perfect sense to me as I could see no red artifacts on the bulb itself. How many total reports of 8500 and 9500 issues have their been relating to this problem, ballpark figures of course? I want to get with the vendor who sold me this projector and ensure Epson upholds their end of the deal here. I know Epson has always had pretty awesome customer service, I just want to make sure were all dealt with proper on this. Bad bulbs, red lines, I thought I was purchasing a very high quality product that I was going to be able to view for years. Hopefully that is still the case. Currently dealing with a horizontal red line issue on a 9500UB purchased in May of 2010. The projector had 979 hours on it when the first bulb went bad, however the red line issue never existed with the first bulb that came pre-installed in the projector. Upon changint to the second bulb, a very distinguishable horizontal reddish pink line was immediately visible across my entire 100″ screen . This line covers approximately the bottom 3 inches of projection. Epson replaced the first and second bulbs under warranty which shows excellent customer service. However, I replaced the second bulb with the new ones just received from Epson and the red line is still very visible, not just barely, but very visible. It is visible 100% of the time not just occasionally. I talked to the folks at Epson today, and I was made aware by the individual I talked with that this was a known issue with the video processor and that they would of course take care of it under warranty by replacing the projector. This all made perfect sense to me as I could see no red artifacts on the bulb itself. How many total reports of 8500 and 9500 issues have their been relating to this problem, ballpark figures of course? I want to get with the vendor who sold me this projector and ensure Epson upholds their end of the deal here. I know Epson has always had pretty awesome customer service, I just want to make sure were all dealt with proper on this. Bad bulbs, red lines, I thought I was purchasing a very high quality product that I was going to be able to view for years. Hopefully that is still the case.

]]> By: adrian http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-71956 adrian Thu, 23 Dec 2010 06:53:47 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-71956 No red line issues on my 8500UB but with 1200H my image suddenly went dim. Tried to adjust brightness and other settings with zero success. I called Epson and they said it was the lamp. I have a feeling, from their responses to my inquiries about the 4000H life of the lamp, that maybe they put subpar lamps in certain 8500's...just speculation. In any case they are overnighting a new lamp at no charge, and the customer service is excellent. Will post once the new lamp is installed. No red line issues on my 8500UB but with 1200H my image suddenly went dim. Tried to adjust brightness and other settings with zero success. I called Epson and they said it was the lamp. I have a feeling, from their responses to my inquiries about the 4000H life of the lamp, that maybe they put subpar lamps in certain 8500′s…just speculation. In any case they are overnighting a new lamp at no charge, and the customer service is excellent. Will post once the new lamp is installed.

]]> By: Art Feierman http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-33314 Art Feierman Fri, 09 Jul 2010 20:43:55 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-33314 Hi Kent, Of course we've been discussing by email. Please comment back to this blog, with status etc. after you call Epson... And don't forget, should you run into someone @ Epson support who doesn't seem to be up to speed about the whole issue, ask for a supervisor, or level 2 support. Get someone who's "on top of things" as most should be by now. -a Hi Kent, Of course we’ve been discussing by email. Please comment back to this blog, with status etc. after you call Epson… And don’t forget, should you run into someone @ Epson support who doesn’t seem to be up to speed about the whole issue, ask for a supervisor, or level 2 support. Get someone who’s “on top of things” as most should be by now. -a

]]> By: Kent http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-33150 Kent Thu, 08 Jul 2010 03:02:41 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-33150 Just got my 8500 today and noticed the wavy red lines right when I turned it on. Have power cycled to no avail. Contacting the company I bought it from to see how long it had been sitting in their stock room. WIll most likelyi be contacting Epson tomorrow to see what they say. Just got my 8500 today and noticed the wavy red lines right when I turned it on. Have power cycled to no avail. Contacting the company I bought it from to see how long it had been sitting in their stock room. WIll most likelyi be contacting Epson tomorrow to see what they say.

]]> By: Peter http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-31226 Peter Fri, 18 Jun 2010 01:14:38 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-31226 I understand this thread is related to the Epson model however I own a Sanyo Z700 with only 20 hours on the unit and it is displaying the same vertical red lines as described in this forum. Unfortunately after power down cycles it has not improved. I am returning it to Sanyo for inspection and will let you know what they, as a competitor have to say. I understand this thread is related to the Epson model however I own a Sanyo Z700 with only 20 hours on the unit and it is displaying the same vertical red lines as described in this forum. Unfortunately after power down cycles it has not improved. I am returning it to Sanyo for inspection and will let you know what they, as a competitor have to say.

]]> By: Art Feierman http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-29659 Art Feierman Mon, 31 May 2010 20:56:02 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-29659 Hi George, Hmm, yours is the first report I've gotten of the problem occurring since a week or two after they announced the fix. I would have thought that Epson had caught all the old units that were out in the field, especially with a major reseller like Visual Apex. Still, yes, best bet, call Epson. If you get someone unresponsive ("level 1" support) ask for level 2 or a manager... Epson has replaced a whole lot of these, and have all the procedures in place, but it seems even so, there's always one person left working the phone lines, who's "last to know"... -art PS. Please do let me know how it all turns out. -a Hi George,

Hmm, yours is the first report I’ve gotten of the problem occurring since a week or two after they announced the fix. I would have thought that Epson had caught all the old units that were out in the field, especially with a major reseller like Visual Apex. Still, yes, best bet, call Epson. If you get someone unresponsive (“level 1″ support) ask for level 2 or a manager… Epson has replaced a whole lot of these, and have all the procedures in place, but it seems even so, there’s always one person left working the phone lines, who’s “last to know”… -art

PS. Please do let me know how it all turns out. -a

]]> By: George http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/2010/01/28/home-cinema-8500ub-projector-red-lines-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-29570 George Mon, 31 May 2010 02:16:10 +0000 http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/?p=715#comment-29570 I just bought a new Epson 8500 this past week from Visual Apex and on my second day of viewing, I am seeing the red lines and halos. From what I have been reading, the correct thing to do is contact Epson vs. calling Visual Apex - right? Hopefully a quick replacement will take care of this issue. My initial impression of the picture (outside of the red lines issue) is otherwise quite positive. I am upgrading from a Panny AE-900 and find the 8500 to be a huge upgrade. I just bought a new Epson 8500 this past week from Visual Apex and on my second day of viewing, I am seeing the red lines and halos.

From what I have been reading, the correct thing to do is contact Epson vs. calling Visual Apex – right?

Hopefully a quick replacement will take care of this issue. My initial impression of the picture (outside of the red lines issue) is otherwise quite positive. I am upgrading from a Panny AE-900 and find the 8500 to be a huge upgrade.

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