Well, I don’t know where to start with your comment. Not sure if you are asking any question? Besides projector stuff, you are all over the place. But I will comment on some of the reviewer stuff.

First, regarding side by side demo videos. Challenging to say the least – Neither my pro Canon DSLR, or the video production company we use for Projector Reviews TV have pro video cameras with the dynamic range to capture the subtleties of these projectors. Even our intentionally overexposed black level video is iffy. What would you watch these videos on? A color calibrated monitor with at least 25,000:1 native contrast? Maybe when we have OLED displays, it can become practical. Our capturing of projected movie scenes deteriorate noticeably by the time you are watching them on a monitor, for any number of reasons.
Another reason, though, is cost. As some of you know, we’ve just launched Projector Reviews TV, which will be mostly informational videos – Why Black Levels are important, choosing the right screen, choosing a projector for the family room… But we are doing summaries of the reviews. Quite honestly the costs are rather prohibitive. We (publishers) can’t make any money putting them on YouTube, and its difficult even on our site. In other words there’s a great cost to doing good videos, far more than text/photo.

Thanks.

I understand. Viewsonic must play the same old marketing games as everyone else, and it oft results in exaggeration, or achieving a spec, but not in a useful real world way. I think your first error is the thought that Viewsonic “makes its living portraying accurate colours to the human eye” Huge assumption. Now, that I’m sure is something Runco or SIM2 would like to say about themselves, though. Consider this possibility instead (this is just an exercise, not anyone’s opinion): Viewsonic “makes a living providing display products designed to be an excellent compromise between technical performance, and price, to provide a product desired for mass market sales by big box houses, and large online resellers. Further Viewsonic has the engineering, to deliver better colour, etc. for a higher price, but we favor a strong value proposition that will serve the largest audience, at the lowest price. We do not target the enthusiast market, although that is a segment of the market that we may some day enter.
As to auto’s and mileage, well, that’s only because you are there, not here. In the US, of course, the government sets the standards for measuring a cars gas mileage. Every car must post the city and highway mileage on the sticker. Nobody has a car here that meets the claims. We’ll maybe a hybrid or two until they noticed that the rating system for hybrids wasn’t exactly reasonable to use for hybrids without modification.

Finally, yes, joe public can push back as you say. Go for it. I favor using my own push backs to try to drive progress forward in terms of projectors better designed to do what they are intended for, be it brighter, or 3D… I yelled a lot for smoother irises, and am screaming for far brighter projectors (2x to 3x the current ones) for 3D whenever I meet with the manufacturers. etc.
You hang in there. -art

I’m a scientist, an engineer, a technologist, a sales guy, a marketing man and also, a student of life.

I do actually care about specifications quite a lot and you might be glad I do.

When my company does it’s work to specifications, thousands of aircraft take to the skies, fly land and taxi safely. When the pilot pulls the stick back, my business takes care of everything from that point on….

I hope that when you next travel by air, you’ll think of me behind the control system and actuation system moving all those flight control surfaces.

I’m also a very keen amateur astronomer, Hi-fi enthusiast and power engineer (fully qualified).

So with this as a background and not at all shy to open the box and look inside, it makes me mad when the obvious “easy” job of building a projector just doesn’t achieve what it says – hence my almost pedant like approach to Viewsonic.

Incidentally for all my gifts, I cannot see rainbows ecept the ones provided by nature (is that good or bad ?)

But I can hear colour wheels, fans belching out air, and I can see colour cast (I’m used to working in very low light situations so have a keen sense of colour balance).

My gripe with VS was that here is a company that makes its living portraying accurate colours to the human eye (note the english spelling). Yet, produces a PJ with an inaccurate colour cast. They also claim a certain brightness, which is almost impossible to achieve.

They claim highly reliable image quality but have problems with horizontal resolution.

I just wish manufacturers who we have paid so much to for their products would just spend a little more care over claims that cannot be achieved in the real world.

It’s just sloppy – and entirely avoidable.

So, back to the PJ, your forum and your efforts to review.

For the record, they are probably peerless. a Little like the DP reviews for cameras – extremeley valuable and much valued.

I’ve no wish to waste your time, but I’m still going to chase after companies that persist in putting products to market assuming people are all the same. I like to think that VS is not a bad compay per-se but merely launched the 8200 a little too early.

I still have 4 black dots on hi-def images and will be looking for another f/w upgrade to fix this in the future. Fact is, “joe public” needs to get behind the art of gently but firmly pushing back on manufacturers to deliver what is specified – after all, they got my hard earned cash in exchange for the PJ.

I didn’t give them “nearly £900″ I gave them exactly £900 ! (work that out in $ and you might see why I’m a little miffed).

BTW Art… I do drive a car and my average MPG is more than the manufacturer claims. I’m very happy.

I’ll keep soldiering on and when the next rev of s/w arrives, I’ll post up for all to learn.

Cheers for now

Steve

Well, if you are so sure, and offended by what I wrote, you’ll be missed. Still I have some responses to your points above. Hope you’re still around to read them. It wasn’t personal. But, I’ve got a pet peeve.

Projectors are what they are.. I spend a good chunk of my time screaming at manufacturers about improving this or that. I want to see projectors be better, always. I want them brighter (usually), but I don’t care about claimed spec vs. performance other than to set READERS expectations. I congratulate companies mostly if their projectors measure even within 10% of claim, because I understand there’s always more lumens under the hood, they are just the ugliest ones and should never be let out to see the “light of day” or worse, illuminate your retina.

1. re the color wheel. I’ve never been able to get a great explanation of how different segment numbers and designs (colors, different sizes of different color slices, etc.) affect rainbow sensitivity, ie. is a 7 segment 3x wheel worse or better than a 4 segment 4x wheel, and what the impact of white slices on the wheel are. With all that in mind, I am rainbow sensitive. Of the lower end projectors Vivitek, Pro8200, BenQ W1000, and Optoma HD20, the HD20 was the only one I’d say that was noticeably better than the other 3. That Optoma is probably more in line with the Mitsubishi HC4000 than the other sub-$1000 units, in terms of rainbows. That’s my observation. I can still see rainbows on the right scenes, even on 5x wheel projectors. It would be handy if there was an easy way to rank how different projectors will affect people in this regard, based on color wheel design, projector brightness, etc.
2. Claims of lumens. A Pro8200 is capable of 2000 lumens. I believe that. With a particularly good lamp, with a custom calibration that would yield some seriously ugly color, I’m sure some of them will break 2000 lumens Do you want to watch it though? Viewsonic says 2000 lumens maximum. I have never met a projector that did it’s best color in it’s brightest mode – unless it has no adjustments.
First – the brightest modes of projectors have the worst color. (high end projectors ie. the Runco LS10 we just reviewed, often provide two brightness ratings – max, and D65 – that is, lumens after calibrating to the desired 6500K. In the Runco LS10′s case, it beat it’s D65 claim (with 1465 lumens vs. 1445 claimed), but came up almost 300 lumens shy of the maximum 2100.
On that same subject, most of our readings are taken at mid-point. We figure that’s the best compromise, but wide angle allows a brighter measurement up to 20% with some lenses/projector designs. Still, even the Runco at full wide angle didn’t hit its number (and that’s for $27,000).
I have little doubt, with a very good lamp (at least as bright as average for that projector), and all the right settings, that these projectors will hit their numbers… It just won’t be watchable. for example, if your projector’s brightest mode measured 1700 lumens, but, you could increase green by 300% so that the color looks like total crap, you might well find those extra 300 lumens, but would you want a picture that looks like they almost forgot red and blue, and whites are just bright light greens?

In other words as with other devices you get the theoretical best for a claim. Hey, that’s how our government does it. EPA mileage…

I trust you drive? Own a car? Does it get at least as good mileage, both city and highway, as the manufacturer claims (and our EPA CERTIFIES)…

And if you aren’t getting claimed mileage, why are you not sending your car back to the shop for replacement or repair…?

And no, it’s not illegal. As I said, the projectors are almost certainly capable, if you tweak them. That the pictures might be unwatchable by anyone who cares about color, isn’t the point. Hell almost anyone buying a pico projector gets fairly lousy color for the money spent, and that can be $800 – almost as much as the Pro8200.

Now if the projector said 2000 lumens at D65… then one would expect great color, close to 2000 lumens. Some projectors produce as much as 2.5 times the brightness in their brighter modes as their best (try any Epson Home Cinema projector), With Epson we’ve watched their claims fall shorter and shorter each year with the the HC’s in terms of meeting claims, but we’ve also noted that generally each year, their brightest mode has gotten a little dimmer, and it’s color has gotten better.

Maybe you are right, maybe we need the manufacturers to all put in an “UGLY” preset mode: with the note:

The insert in the manual could say: “Here are your 2000 lumens promised.” Per industry expectations, if you would like to have the best color choose other modes. There is a correlation between color and brightness, (not a pretty one). We feel you will find much better color though, if you choose to give up 20-30% of lumens, and if you want truly great color, expect to give up, up to 70% of maximum brightness.

Wouldn’t change anything but provide more disclosure.

But, why read reviews if you make your purchase decisions soley on published specs. And if your answer is, I take both into consideration, then you aren’t going in blind…

I’m sorry, but, as much as my job is to help folks like you to chose the best projector for the money, and the specific requiremetns, I still am a capitalist, and believe ultimately that it’s our responsibility to do our homework and to make major purchases with “eyes wide open”… I don’t buy iPhones, and iPads on the first day they are out. I wait, I read, I try to make a logical decision, based on the facts available to me. I recommend the same to all home theater folks. My reviews are intended to do just that – help.

But, debating whether you’ve been wronged, by buying a projector that doesn’t measure claims, after other sources have already documented that, is more wishful thinking, and lack of research. You are a researcher, so you went in with eyes open I presume. You just don’t like the way the industry does things.

Look Steve, you bought a crossover projector. First, we measured 1653 lumens, not 1466. The lower number was after mike worked on the color, but no one says one has to improve on the picture. 1653 was what we measured, we do not try to see if we can get 1890 or 2017 lumens just for the sake of measuring lumens. Mike’s instructions from me, are: Measure all the modes – lens at mid-point. For our bright quick-cal, Mike’s assignment is to see if he can improve the color a bit, but without costing many lumens. Afterall, if we want a great picture, that’s “best” mode, not “brightest”. But, I assume most people prefer not to watch the absolute brightest POSSIBLE image because, with any projector, it will look lousy.

It’s not illegal. You can try suing them… Good luck. You could return it (if not too late), but you say you want this model, not one’s that are likely more of what you say you want.

So, if you are “out of here” sorry, it made for some interesting discussions. but, for the rest of the readers, a bright side, is, I can spend more time writing competitors sections, and a little less debating more philosophical issues such the moral obligations of projector manufacturers.

Let me ask you this. If I could show you that a Pro8200 can be adjusted to do 2000 lumens would you be satisfied? Or do you also want every unit made to hit that claim. And if so, under what circumstances? ie. back to cars, city mileage. it’s going to be radically different in San Francisco, than in Topeka…

OK, back to the Sony review… -a

I think I get the message. The PJ is what it is – no more, no less.

FYI, the colour wheel is 7 segment. Would this tend to suggest (all things being equal) that it would spin faster or slower than a “typical” colour wheel ?

Also, given that they claim 2000 lumens, could you please explain why everyone just accepts that it will never actually achieve this ?

I do not agree with just living with it.

It says 2000 lumens, so I expect to get it. Period.

If I had wanted a 1466 lumen PJ, I’d have bought one. Sure, you can argue all you like about it being typical, suitable, acceptable, etc but that’s not the point at all.

It’s misrepresenting the facts and that is illegal. With a long history of working with Trading Standards, I feel I have every right to expect what is portrayed.

I guess this will be my last post in a while as clearly, you think I’m wasting my time (and perhaps yours) so thanks for all you’ve done up to now and I appreciate the support given.

All the very best

Steve

I’m going have to challenge a couple of things here goes. The main thing is this: “I’m pushing hard on Viewsonic to come up with an answer to the Motion Blurring problem and poor colour temperature setting. Sure, it needs calibrating, but why so bad out of the box ?”

I think you are wasting your time, and more to the point, for the most part, I disagree. You are asking a company – Viewsonic, that makes a nice little cross-over projector (as I’ve explained, a cross-over projector is typically a business projector adapted to be more suitable for dual usage (biz and home), I doubt many crossover projectors can match the picture of even the worst true “dedicated” home theater projector, primarily for family room use, to have great color out of the box. (I’m sorry, guy an average color temp of 7800 is not terrible color. In fact, a lot of folks prefer 7500K to 6500K for sports viewing, (including me, if that 7500 gets me a brighter picture… Sure 7500K or 7800K is not ideal for movies, but it’s not bad. The author’s comments, remember are often based on torture testing, like the Buster Keaton film… Is that the kind of stuff you are watching… Not that many projectors even support the much lower color temps (5800ish) of older black and white…

But, more to the point, the author doesn’t set this projector up as “movie first” more of movie last – gaming, other stuff first. If you read that review, or my review before buying, and were a movie buff looking for best color, least artifacts, not a top choice… Both of us describe it as more of a family room projector… I emphasize that it’s a crossover – a business projector adapted for home use.. If you wanted a great movie projector, neither review indicated that it is, so why did you chose that over the competition.

It just seems like based on your writings – you don’t mention what you watch, but your comments about what Viewsonic needs to fix, are mostly things that Viewsonic had to compromise to get you something close to 2000 lumens, and the reviewers by and large are reporting that.

As to color out of the box, same issue again. Look, few under $5000 come out of the box with color that any serious enthusiast will want to improve by calibration. There are $5K and $10K projectors that aren’t much better. I’d rather have 7800K with green in balance with R and B, than have 6550, but have green be dramatically too strong… It’s not the numbers, it’s the picture.

We at least provide settings that actually on our unit (will be variation from lamp to lamp, and, hey, a perfectionist will be recalibrating every 500 hours because the lamp color shifts over time… (as well as losing brightness).

But the point is this. this projector was never engineered to be a great movie projector, despite all the usual home “cinema” marketing, which everyone does. It’s a bare bones, entry level projector with a slow color wheel which gives it more brightness, probably more fringing, and more horiztonal blur issues. Ya should have bought the Optoma HD20, if you didn’t mind the much lower lumens. Same basic price, very out of the box color (for an under $2K projector (US$), faster wheel, less blurring. I fear you wanted the best of all worlds. A very bright projector, at a low cost, without wanting the sacrifices that come with that. With low cost DLP home projectors, a rough rule of thumb is most lower cost ones have the slow color wheels that add the brightness and result in the other problems. Too bad the review you read failed to point that out.

BTW here’s a good rule of thumb. If a dlp projector has less than a 4x wheel, it’s business projector compromised to do decent home projection. That’s the Viewsonic all over.

It’s not a videophile projector which seems to be exactly what you are asking for. motion speed comparable to a 5x home theater projector, color accuracy out of the box. If you want great color accuracy, out of the box, there are a few projectors under $3K, look for any one that is THX certified…

There might be a cheaper one, but the 8700UB, or for those who are on a tight budget, an older 8500ub. Any adjustments we have made to THX units, we figure is more correcting for the lamp, and virtually no correcting for the projector itself…

So, your intentions are good, but you are asking a fast food hamburger, to be a New York steak.

Look, we all want the max for our money, but, If you got everything you asked for, including the lumens, I’d say, roughly, you’d have roughly, what today, is a $1800 – $3000 projector, which still wouldn’t be as bright

Consider, even a personal favorite projector like the Epson UB, can’t produce color over 1000 lumens, that’s any better than the Viewsonic. It’s only when you are down in the 400-500 range that it has a truly excellent picture… And that’s at 2.2 times the price, and pretty much top rated by most folk at the price point, as the best or right up there.

Well, best of luck… -art ps. didn’t proof this have to run right now (would have rambled longer)
pps. I disagree, with the author of the other review, re rainbows… and reducing gamma, the best ways to reduce rainbow effect for those suseptible, are:
a) faster color wheel (with more segments is good too), b) avoid DLP.

Since the Viewsonic is probably either a 2x, or, a 3x color wheel, the correct move for people who see rainbows with projectors like the Viewsonic Pro8200, would be to go (I say again), with a projector with a faster wheel, and the resulting less visible rainbows… BTW, a 3rd way is to reduce brightness, if you have 1500 lumens and rainbows are annoying the hell out of you, then if you could drop it to 500 lumens, they might only annoy you slightly… Seems the brighter, the more the rainbows bother me, and many other rainbow sensitive people I know.

Thanks for the reply. I should point out that the issues I reported in my last post were not all on my machine and not specific to me. They were (I strongly feel) based on generic feedback from other users.

In my case, I have seen the 4 white dots on 1080p content as well. The rest of the issues… were not from me except the loss of memory.

I’m pushing hard on Viewsonic to come up with an answer to the Motion Blurring problem and poor colour temperature setting. Sure, it needs calibrating, but why so bad out of the box ?

I have not seen the motion blurring yet (my AV room is still undergoing comissioning) but Home Cinema Choice did

See here for more details (abbreviated from the published print version)

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/projectors/viewsonic-pro8200-925666/review

If I finf anything, I wonder if you might consider starting a new page for users of the PJ ?

cheers

Steve